Brachypelma baumgarteni x boehmei “Hybrid Variant Form II”

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

This is my second mature male hybrid baumgarteni x boehmei that I’ve had in my collection. This dude looks so close to the real species baumgarteni. I figured it’s important to photograph another variant of a hybrid. The last photo is what he looked like before he matured.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

He is beautiful....but it sucks that people are hybridizing different species like that.

 

[Kichimark]

Handsome guy. Got a question, is hybridizing done on purpose or through misidentification? Historically speaking that is. I heard about this before but never dived into the T world much before.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

Handsome guy. Got a question, is hybridizing done on purpose or through misidentification? Historically speaking that is. I heard about this before but never dived into the T world much before.

I think between the species baumgarteni and boehmei was hybridize by mistake. I know Brachypelma verdezi & vagans was done on purpose. Same with Tliltocatl albopilosus & vagans was done on purpose.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

Handsome guy. Got a question, is hybridizing done on purpose or through misidentification? Historically speaking that is. I heard about this before but never dived into the T world much before.

It's often done as a result of misidentification. Especially in the early days of the hobby, entirely different species were sometimes assumed to be color variants or localities of each other, and were hybridized. This is how some of the "hobby" forms developed. It's unfortunate, especially since so many of these animals are endangered in the wild, and may no longer exist except in private collections in just a few mere decades. By hybridizing tarantulas, humans are contaminating their bloodlines. This is why it's important to avoid breeding different localities of what appear to be the same species, because theraphosid taxonomy frequently changes as subtle differences between species are uncovered.

 

[Kichimark]

Very interesting.

I have a question about the hybridization, actually two.

1. Are these hybrids viable in having offspring that can further reproduce or would they end up like a mule?

2. When it comes to Brachypelma hamorii and Brachypelma smithi, all of the ones imported historically were B. hamorii and the B. smithi were B. annitha from what I read. So, would the chances of the B. hamorii being crossed with B. smithi not be likely since they had different scientific names and probably kept separate by keepers or is there evidence (scientific or anecdotal at this point) of them being crossed over the years?

Sorry for asking lots of questions. This topic fascinates me and would love to hear from folks who have seen these trends over time.

 

[Frogdaddy]

This and every other hybrid thread should be banned amd removed. Newbs are constantly asking about hybrids and people post telling them it's "irresponsible" and only "idiots" hybridize. Yet here is yet another threat glorifying hybrids.
Yes this animal looks pretty, but it's pure garbage.

 

[Table]

es this animal looks pretty, but it's pure garbage.

I understand that hybrids are bad for the hobby, but why is everyone so angry?
He never said he made this hybrid, and I think just because a T is a hybrid it isn't "pure garbage"
Now they Def shouldn't be breed, but if you have a hybrid that was made threw misidentification then why can't you keep the T and be happy about it.

There is no reason to take a dump on someone because they like there T.

Making hybrids == BAD

Keeping allready made hybrids that you lable as so, and never breed them (unless maby with the same hybrid to experiment but idk) == Not so bad

Pulse this guy seems to know what he is doing so I'm sure they are being handled responsibly, and I'm sure he isn't just flooding the market with hybrids

 

[Frogdaddy]

ANY post not condemning hybrids is condoning and encouraging hybrids. The tarantula hobbies dirty little secret.

 

[Table]

ANY post not condemning hybrids is condoning and encouraging hybrids

does it thow?

I didn't ready anywhere
"hey go make hybrids"
"wow its so easy to make this"
"everyone should have this T"
"this is OK and appricated behavior"

I haven't seen a single post telling people to go out and make hybrids, its very clear that habbiests don't like hybridization.

 

[Frogdaddy]

its very clear that habbiests don't like hybridization.

Exactly. So why are there all these threads discussing hybrids?
Your silent complicity is endorsing hybrids.

 

[Table]

Exactly. So why are there all these threads discussing hybrids?

Because its an interesting topic that deserves the be disscused.
How are the newbies suppost to know that hybrids are bad?
Should'nt there be threads dissusing the dangers of hybrids?
Maby never talking about them could lead to even more being made on accident.

This is a fourm page, a fourm that dissuces tarantulas.
Hybrids can be enjoyed or appreciated without condoning the practice of hybridization.

just because I watch murder mystery shows, dosnt mean I'm going to indulge in a murderous rampage.

Don't be narrow minded, people can enjoy whatever they want and if they do it responsibly then I see no problem with it. (responsibly as in not telling people its OK to make hybrids)

I done bickering with someone I don't even know.
Just let people enjoy their Ts, and if you have a prom with hybrids being dissuced on the forum.
Eather report them to staff, or make a thread talking about it to see if it can get changed.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

ANY post not condemning hybrids is condoning and encouraging hybrids. The tarantula hobbies dirty little secret.

I do understand what you're saying, but hear me out. I still think it's better to know what the hybrids look like and understand how closely they can resemble the pure species than to be blind to it all. We will (unfortunately) almost always have people who hybridise whether they mean to or not and this is not the fault of people highlighting their differences. OP is one of the most solid voices on understanding the differences between pure boehmei/baumgartenei and the hybrids, for which I am grateful. I know a few folks here have discovered their specimens are hybrids through OP's photos and hopefully the revelations have squashed any hope they had at breeding. I always take threads like these as being of neutral educational intent.

 

[Frogdaddy]

I understand that hybrids are bad for the hobby, but why is everyone so angry?
He never said he made this hybrid, and I think just because a T is a hybrid it isn't "pure garbage"
Now they Def shouldn't be breed, but if you have a hybrid that was made threw misidentification then why can't you keep the T and be happy about it.

There is no reason to take a dump on someone because they like there T.

Making hybrids == BAD

Keeping allready made hybrids that you lable as so, and never breed them (unless maby with the same hybrid to experiment but idk) == Not so bad

Pulse this guy seems to know what he is doing so I'm sure they are being handled responsibly, and I'm sure he isn't just flooding the market with hybrids

First off, I have no problem with Exoskeletons Invertebrates. I think he's a bright guy. I enjoy many of his posts. I'm not taking a "dump" on him, never even mentioned him in any post. So you're wrong yet again.
When you buy a hybrid your immoral, unethical purchase prompts the breeder (hybridizer) to cross more animals to make more money. Again all this accomplishes is encouraging more hybrids. Not to hard to figure that one out. Just the same as every rescue A. avic or A. seemanni from Petco encourages them to buy more. As @viper69 said in an earlier thread, "dart froggers don't have this issue." Perhaps froggers are smarter than T keepers? Certainly smarter than some on this thread.

Because its an interesting topic that deserves the be disscused.
How are the newbies suppost to know that hybrids are bad?
Should'nt there be threads dissusing the dangers of hybrids?
Maby never talking about them could lead to even more being made on accident.

This is a fourm page, a fourm that dissuces tarantulas.
Hybrids can be enjoyed or appreciated without condoning the practice of hybridization.

just because I watch murder mystery shows, dosnt mean I'm going to indulge in a murderous rampage.

Don't be narrow minded, people can enjoy whatever they want and if they do it responsibly then I see no problem with it. (responsibly as in not telling people its OK to make hybrids)

I done bickering with someone I don't even know.
Just let people enjoy their Ts, and if you have a prom with hybrids being dissuced on the forum.
Eather report them to staff, or make a thread talking about it to see if it can get changed.

Hybrids are interesting? In what way? Playing God? Creating Frakentarantulas? How are they interesting other than in a selfish and greedy way? You say "hybrids and be enjoyed and appreciated without condoning the practice of hybridization." You're flat out wrong. Because your "enjoyment and appreciation" is a direct form of endorsement and acceptance. If you accept it the next guy will think hey he thinks it's ok so it's ok with me too. Then it's over, we lose pure blood lines. Forever. No going back EVER. Now that G. rosea isn't being imported how do you feel about losing that species if someone hybridizes them? How do we get that pure species back in the hobby? We can't. How about crossing some of the restricted pokie species? That ok with you?
So you're comparing purposely making hybrids to murder, the most vile, evil thing one human can do to another? Why wouldn't you commit murder? Because it's immoral? So is hybridizing animals on purpose and for profit, which is exactly what you're endorsing by saying it's ok, it's not THAT bad, So are you saying I would never indulge in a murderous rampage, but it's ok if I just cut off some arms and legs, hey I didn't kill them? Is this your justification to attempt hyridization? I'll say this till my dying day. If you take ANY attitude other than it's wrong, than you are supporting, endorsing and espousing hybrids.

Perhaps the OP should have some kind of disclaimer. For educational purposes only, please don't hybridize, it's wrong.
I am in no way blaming EI, His posts are always informative and he takes amazing photos. IMO these things should not be publicized, or encouraged. It should be, this in an example of what NOT to do.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

This and every other hybrid thread should be banned amd removed. Newbs are constantly asking about hybrids and people post telling them it's "irresponsible" and only "idiots" hybridize. Yet here is yet another threat glorifying hybrids.
Yes this animal looks pretty, but it's pure garbage.

First of there are several variants forms of B. baumgarteni in the same egg sac and in the same locality. Therefore when baumgerteni and B. boehmei are introduced for breeding you can be sure that many of the offsprings are gonna look quite differently. I believe individuals who are hobbyists, breeders or taxonomists is important for them to learn the characteristics of these man made material hybrids. I know if I was to mate and eventually breed B. boehmei I would want to be sure that I have male and female of the real species. Post like this one are for educational purposes. If you don’t want to be educated about the characteristics of a couple of species that have been hybridize that’s your choice. My suggestion is don’t post and move along to a different thread.

The male on my first post is my second hybrid male that reached maturity two weeks ago. The first male I had matured a few years ago. Both males after reaching maturity do not look anything alike. That’s one of the reasons why it’s important to study the characteristics of these hybrids so mistakes aren’t made by newbies or experienced hobbyists.

This mature male I owned. I believe he was photographed about two years ago.


Brachypelma baumgarteni x boehmei “Hybrid Variant Form I” - Mature Male

 

[Frogdaddy]

First of there are several variants forms of B. baumgarteni in the same egg sac and in the same locality. Therefore when baumgerteni and B. boehmei are introduced for breeding you can be sure that many of the offsprings are gonna look quite differently. I believe individuals who are hobbyists, breeders or taxonomists is important for them to learn the characteristics of these man made material hybrids. I know if I was to mate and eventually breed B. boehmei I would want to be sure that I have male and female of the real species. Post like this one are for educational purposes. If you don’t want to be educated about the characteristics of a couple of species that have been hybridize that’s your choice. My suggestion is don’t post and move along to a different thread.

This male is my second hybrid male that has been in my care that has reached maturity. The first male I had matured a few years ago. Both males after reaching maturity do not look anything alike. That’s one of the reasons why it’s important to study the characteristics of these hybrids so mistakes aren’t made by newbies or experienced hobbyists.

This mature male I owned. I believe he was photographed about two years ago.


Brachypelma baumgarteni x boehmei “Hybrid Variant Form I” - Mature Male View attachment 361746

I hope you're not taking this the wrong way. I have no issues with you. You just said what needed to be said. For educational purposes. I think it also comes with the responsibility of saying, this isn't right, just so people don't get the wrong idea and try it themselves. Like they say on some TV shows, don't try this at home.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

I do understand what you're saying, but hear me out. I still think it's better to know what the hybrids look like and understand how closely they can resemble the pure species than to be blind to it all. We will (unfortunately) almost always have people who hybridise whether they mean to or not and this is not the fault of people highlighting their differences. OP is one of the most solid voices on understanding the differences between pure boehmei/baumgartenei and the hybrids, for which I am grateful. I know a few folks here have discovered their specimens are hybrids through OP's photos and hopefully the revelations have squashed any hope they had at breeding. I always take threads like these as being of neutral educational intent.

Exactly my point. And thanks!

I hope you're not taking this the wrong way. I have no issues with you. You just said what needed to be said. For educational purposes. I think it also comes with the responsibility of saying, this isn't right, just so people don't get the wrong idea and try it themselves. Like they say on some TV shows, don't try this at home.

Everyone that knows me knows I’m against “Hybridization” of any way shape or form. B. baumgarteni, B. boehmei and hybrids of both species has been my biggest project to explain and educate people of the characteristics of these tarantulas.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Everyone that knows me knows I’m against “Hybridization” of any way shape or form. B. baumgarteni, B. boehmei and hybrids of both species has been my biggest project to explain and educate people of the characteristics of these tarantulas.

A general curiosity, do you purchase or obtain specimens from people who claim they're pure boehmei or baumgarteni and discover otherwise, or do you get hybrids with the knowledge of them being hybrids? That seems accusatory but it's not, promise!

 

[Frogdaddy]

@Exoskeleton Invertebrates just curious, in your opinion, what percentage of Brachypelma are hybrids? Are B. boehmei and baumgarteni the most commonly crossed? What other hybrids have you come across?
I understand that many species look a lot alike, especially when it comes to a black or brown species. The native collectors are just trying to make a living. They're probably not well trained in terms of different species and I'm sure they grab every spider they can just to get paid.
The importer gets them as type "A" spider and sells them to the wholesaler who sells them as type "A" spider to the hobbyist who breeds them to a type "B" spider that was misidentified and sold as a type "A" spider. That to me is an accident, as few of us hobbyists are scientists that are going to be able to identify a species based on the scientific description. I can see how unfortunate accidents like that happen. It would suck if they were to get out into the hobby and I'm sure it's already happened.
But how many people are out there trying to turn the tarantula hobby into the ball python hobby? I realize that's kinda apples and oranges as ball python morphs are genetic mutations, but you get my meaning.

 

[Exoskeleton Invertebrates]

A general curiosity, do you purchase or obtain specimens from people who claim they're pure boehmei or baumgarteni and discover otherwise, or do you get hybrids with the knowledge of them being hybrids? That seems accusatory but it's not, promise!

In regards of baumgarteni x boehmei I purchased over 30 specimens in 2013 from LLLReptile. These were being sold as B. boehmei. Triple L had a photo of a specimen on their website, so when I saw it I knew they weren’t boehmei’s. That triple L was selling. However, I really thought the specimens they were selling were B. baumgarteni. Once I purchased these specimens I started a thread on AB to show off my findings lol. Come to find out after 14 pages discussion on this thread https://arachnoboards.com/threads/b-baumgarteni.248735/ and digging deeper where this specimens originated from my specimens were “hybrids”. At some point these specimens were showing characteristics of baumgarteni or boehmei or through each molt. These specimens seem to be shapeshifters lol. It was like it couldn’t decide what species it wanted to be. Now, my most recent mature male hybrid I purchased from a a local hobbyists. He purchased it as B. boehmei and he sold it to me as boehmei. I purchased it because I knew his specimen had the characteristics as a “hybrid”.
I have owned many B. boehmei in the past. And as for B. baumgarteni I have owns over 60 specimens since 2015-16. I’ve compared characteristics of baumgarteni, boehmei and hybrids through the years.
The two hybrid on this thread are not related. Though each one shows different characteristics that does not match of the real boehmei or baumgarteni. I know cause I have dealt and own boehmei and baumgarteni.

@Exoskeleton Invertebrates just curious, in your opinion, what percentage of Brachypelma are hybrids? Are B. boehmei and baumgarteni the most commonly crossed? What other hybrids have you come across?
I understand that many species look a lot alike, especially when it comes to a black or brown species. The native collectors are just trying to make a living. They're probably not well trained in terms of different species and I'm sure they grab every spider they can just to get paid.
The importer gets them as type "A" spider and sells them to the wholesaler who sells them as type "A" spider to the hobbyist who breeds them to a type "B" spider that was misidentified and sold as a type "A" spider. That to me is an accident, as few of us hobbyists are scientists that are going to be able to identify a species based on the scientific description. I can see how unfortunate accidents like that happen. It would suck if they were to get out into the hobby and I'm sure it's already happened.
But how many people are out there trying to turn the tarantula hobby into the ball python hobby? I realize that's kinda apples and oranges as ball python morphs are genetic mutations, but you get my meaning.

I think I said this before. Tliltocatl albopilosus & Tliltocatl vagans the most common. Tliltocatl verdezi & vagans is common as well. B. baumgarteni & boehmei is common cause it has been hybridize in the U.S and in Mexico. The hybrids that were produced in Mexico were sold in the U.S and in Canada. Other parts of the world I’m not sure. On Facebook I do know that some Asian hobbyists love to pair and cross breed.
There are videos of different “red legs” species breeding on YouTube. It’s crazy what people have done to some of these species.