Black Rat Snake Wrangling

[kerrybr]

Black rat snake experiences

about 35 years ago, in my younger days (I was about 11 or 12 yrs old), I lived in south central Indiana. I was fortunate to grow up in the "woods" with hills and hollows. There was an old fence row grown up behind my house where I could almost, without fail, find nice black rats. I was nailed MANY times by various sizes. Even at my young age and a hit from a large one, there was never more then some blood letting. I suppose that is why I was rather cavalier in catching them and never used sticks, etc.
Just a story...
Kerry

 

[pitbulllady]

I'd have to disagree....I know its not an allergic reaction, but a chemical one. Ask just about anyone who has been bit by a NA or Asian Rat Snake...they'll tell you it itched like all get out lol. Thats not a mechanical reaction IMO.

I've been bitten countless times by North American Elaphe, and never had any reaction, no more than I get from a blackberry briar scratch, anyway. I can't say that I've had any noticeable reaction to any Colubrid bite, actually, not even from a seven-foot Texas Bullsnake. I bleed a bit, and that's it. Within a hour or so, I can't even find the spot where I was bitten. I can't say I've ever had any itching from a snake bite, but from a G. rosea bite-now THAT itched!

pitbulllady

 

[Beardo]

Just as with many other animal-induced chemical reactions, its very likely that results from a bite will vary from person to person. Like myself, I know of many people who have experienced reactions from NA colubrids...specifically Nerodia and Thamnophis, even moreso than Ratsnakes.

 

[Thoth]

It could just be an allergic reaction to the snakes saliva, very real possibility and with allergic sensitivities not every may have a reaction, also it would usually take more then one exposure to develop the sensitivity.

It maybe that these toxins have a secondary function other that killing prey and that maybe why it is found in colubrids other than just being an atavistic trait from a common ancestor with more toxic snakes.

 

[Beardo]

It is doubtful that the reactions have anything to do with allergies. One thing I have noticed with the saliva of snakes of the genus Heterodon, Nerodia and Thamnophis is that they have an anticoagulant property to it. Seing as how a large diet of these snakes consists of toxic prey such as frogs and toads, perhaps there is some correlation there.

 

[Crotalus]

It could just be an allergic reaction to the snakes saliva, very real possibility and with allergic sensitivities not every may have a reaction, also it would usually take more then one exposure to develop the sensitivity.

It maybe that these toxins have a secondary function other that killing prey and that maybe why it is found in colubrids other than just being an atavistic trait from a common ancestor with more toxic snakes.

These snakes are infact older then elapids. The amount of active proteins in their saliva is not enough according to Fry to help the snakes subdue a prey, or cause envenomation on humans.

Perhaps dirt in the bite wound transfered by the snake, that would cause itching.

 

[Beardo]

Perhaps dirt in the bite wound transfered by the snake, that would cause itching.

Not unless the captive born and bred ratsnakes that bit me somehow manufactured dirt in their saliva lol.

 

[Gigas]

Not unless the captive born and bred ratsnakes that bit me somehow manufactured dirt in their saliva lol.

Well IME snakes dont brush their Teeth, and anything that doesnt brush its teeth ends up with a "dirty bite" people have ahad bite wounds from other people go septic very quickly because of the junk we have in our mouths

 

[Beardo]

Of course, but Crotalus (based on my interpretation) and I were referring to "dirt"....aka soil/the stuff you get buried in when you die lol.

 

[Sheri]

And the one wild hognose snake I've ever seen was one that an acquaintance ran over, and then backed over to finish the job. I really gave 'em hell for that one, I have always wanted to encounter one in the wild.

I didn't know you were a herper.

Sometimes though, you see them too late to react.
Especially if you're not actively looking for them, and watching for suicidal deer instead on a gravel road doing 90 km/hr. And finishing them off is better than letting them die a slow death on the road.

I wish I had 2 sets of eyes. One pair I could focus on the road for herping, and another for mammaling.

 

[pitbulllady]

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that Nerodia and Thamnophis, as well as Heterodon, actually DO possess a Duvernoy's gland, while Elaphe do NOT. The term "Rat snake", like the term "Daddy Long-Legs", can be misleading. The snakes which Dr. Frye are referring to, and from which some serious toxins were isolated, are those Asian snakes in the genus Ptyas, which is completely unrelated, genetically, to those in the genus Elaphe. In fact, the genus Elaphe is one of the few Colubrid taxons from which NO toxins have been isolated so far, along with Lampropeltis and Pituophis, indicating a recent common ancestry for those three taxonomic groups.

pitbulllady

 

[Tim Benzedrine]

I didn't know you were a herper.

Sometimes though, you see them too late to react.
Especially if you're not actively looking for them, and watching for suicidal deer instead on a gravel road doing 90 km/hr. And finishing them off is better than letting them die a slow death on the road.

I wish I had 2 sets of eyes. One pair I could focus on the road for herping, and another for mammaling.

Yeah, I dabble in herps whenever possible. At the most amateur of levels though, really. Not nearly as much as I would like.

You are right, sometimes running them down is unavoidable. Earlier this spring, I was with my nephew and I spotted a snake in the road. He tried to slow down and swerve to miss, but he was practically on top of it before I could warn him.
Ironically, we were enroute to his house for me to ID a snake that he had spotted. {He is definitely NOT a herper, or naturalist of any sort) After a quick search, it turned out to be a garter snake, as I expected it would be, and as I suspect the victim we ran over was also. My nephew offered to take me back to check it out, but I deemed it an unsafe idea as I had not noticed anyplace nearby to park the car.
He just bought a house adjacent to what looks like it may be excellent habitat, by the way. If I can find out who the owns the property and whether they allow trespass.

Anyway, the incident I mentioned earlier with the hognose was no accident, and I was pretty peeved. I spent considerable time searching the vicinity for other specimens, with no luck other than a garter snake and a couple common watersnakes (Nerodia sipedon sipedon). Which are reviled as "water moccasins" by most people around here.
Oh, and I mispoke about that hognose being the only specimen I have seen. During one of my hunts, I found another dead one nearly in the same spot. My friends insisted they had nothing to do with that one, though.

I think I have figured out the criteria for snake identification around here.

If it has a pattern: A Copperhead. Kill it.
If it is spotted near water and/or has a pattern: Water Moccasin or a thirsty Copperhead. Kill it.
If it is black with a faint underlying pattern: A cross between a copperhead and a blacksnake. We don't put up wit' no interbreedin'. Kill it.
If it is black with no pattern: Kill it. It probably associates with copperheads and water moccasins anyway.
If it has stripes and is greenish coloration, it's a harmless "garden snake". But maybe not. Better kill it to be safe.


Do you see the pattern? I hope not, I'd have to kill it.

 

[Tleilaxu]

I hate people that just outright kill a snake here is what I would do....

If it has a pattern: A Copperhead. Try to grab it.
If it is spotted near water and/or has a pattern: Water Moccasin or a thirsty Copperhead. Try to grab it without getting wet.
If it is black with a faint underlying pattern: A cross between a copperhead and a blacksnake. We don't put up wit' no interbreedin'. Catch/grab it.
If it is black with no pattern: Catch/grab it. It probably associates with copperheads and water moccasins anyway.
If it has stripes and is greenish coloration, it's a harmless "garden snake". But maybe not. Better catch/grab it to be safe.