Best Plants for Halloween Hissers??

[Vulgarteacup]

Hello There!

I’m new to the forum and even more new to keeping Hissers. I was recently gifted 4 adult Females 1 Male and about 70 nymphs. They were in a very tiny enclosure that I just upgraded to a 5.5 gallon fish tank. They have plenty of space and places to hide at the moment. I hope that’ll still be the case in 10 months when there’s many more adults but...

I was planing on adding some plants to further pimp out their cage however my knowledge is limited on what might harm them.
Obviously nothing from a regular ole greenhouse that probably used pesticides and fertilizers that could kill them if they fancied a nibble.

But Would a few tiny shoots of snake plants that I already have be alright? I read potatoe plant seedlings could work... I’d really like to add something they could nibble on that Would be beneficial to them.

I’ve been offering them cuttings of Brussels sprouts, apricots, bananas, blueberries and high protein dog kibble so they might not devour whatever plants I put in there but there’s still a risk they could all die if I choose unwisely!!!

This young grasshopper all needs your buggy guidance.

 

[BepopCola]

I've never had hissers, but I use snake plants with my millipedes. They would not be beneficial if nibbled on. I've never had one eaten, but they might be the opposite.
I have a cutting of pothos that I'm growing in my little roach tank, just for some greenery, it's surviving.
I've tried a Boston fern, sweet potatoes, and strawberries but they all got eaten up.

I recently read about someone that used chia seeds in their tanks. They grow fast and are a leafy snack for their pets.
I'm gonna try it out. I found some chia seeds in my pantry. I'm trying to sprout them but they might be too old.
These are just my experiences, sorry I couldn't be more help.

 

[Vulgarteacup]

I've never had hissers, but I use snake plants with my millipedes. They would not be beneficial if nibbled on. I've never had one eaten, but they might be the opposite.
I have a cutting of pothos that I'm growing in my little roach tank, just for some greenery, it's surviving.
I've tried a Boston fern, sweet potatoes, and strawberries but they all got eaten up.

I recently read about someone that used chia seeds in their tanks. They grow fast and are a leafy snack for their pets.
I'm gonna try it out. I found some chia seeds in my pantry. I'm trying to sprout them but they might be too old.
These are just my experiences, sorry I couldn't be more help.

Thank you for your response!
Those are great ideas. I read about pothos and was leaning towards getting some of that but I read somewhere that it’s super poisonous to insects I keep seeing conflicting things about that though.

I’m definitely going to try my snake plant now. Probably in a tiny tank with just a few roaches first for a couple weeks. Just in case. I really like that chia seed idea I thought about radishes because they sprout so fast but chia makes more sense.

Have you found any issues with your roaches old moults? I literally have no idea how I’m gonna find them all and clean them out. Maybe I need a some springtails or isopods in there.

 

[BepopCola]

Those are great ideas. I read about pothos and was leaning towards getting some of that but I read somewhere that it’s super poisonous to insects I keep seeing conflicting things about that though.

I've heard the same! None of my bugs seems to bother the pothos, except snails. I read that sansevieria contain toxins also, but none of my guys seem to eat them. Maybe the leaves are too thick to penetrate.
Testing it with a smaller population sounds good.

Have you found any issues with your roaches old moults? I literally have no idea how I’m gonna find them all and clean them out. Maybe I need a some springtails or isopods in there.

I have not had this issue. I actually haven't seen any old molts in the tank.
I do keep them with springtails and 2 small millipedes though. Love them clean-up crews.
I was worried about using isopods since mine are small roaches (little Kenyans) and isopods are opportunists.

 

[Vulgarteacup]

I need me a cleanup crew like yours!! Thos Kenyans are pretty darn cute!!

I was only worried about old molts because I read somewhere about all the mold spores roaches can carry. I guess they can cause really bad allergic reactions in some people. The paper I read said the old molts carry more of the spores than the actual insects. I don’t know, I don’t handle them all the time just gonna continue washing my hands and pick up some springtails and millipedes would be epic too.

Have you seen those rubber ducky isopod? They’re so Fing ADORABLE!!!

 

[Feral]

I just wanted to add that snake plant/Sansevaria is also known as "dumb cane" because it mildly toxic and causes numbness and swelling in the mouths of vertebrates who eat it. I have no idea how inverts would react to to ingesting it but, without explicit proof that it is safe with insects likely to eat vegetation, my personal policy is that I don't use plants I know have negative effects on other types of creatures. So for me, I personally wouldn't chance it.
Pothos/Epipremnum is very toxic, as mentioned, with vertebrates, I'm not sure how inverts would handle the insoluble calcium oxalates that are the problem for vertebrates, or if there are any other compounds in them which vertebrates handle but inverts can't. So with animals who like to eat vegetation, I personally wouldn't chance pothos. My opinion.
There are several plants that herp keepers use in thier plant-snacking herp (iguanas, bearded dragons, etc.) enclosures. Maybe some of those would work for you.

If you tell us what kind of substrate, moisture levels, lighting, etc. you have maybe we could easier suggest plants to match those conditions.

 

[BepopCola]

Ah, I didn't know that about the mold spores. I guess that explains why roaches always get so moldy after I pin them.
But my good ol' springtails should be eating all that mold stuff right up.
And yeah! I want the rubber duckies so bad. Soon, soon.

 

[davehuth]

I just wanted to add that my hissing cockroaches typically consume their exuvia after molting.

 

[Vulgarteacup]

I just saw that for myself the other day! I thought the white nymph was consuming a smaller roach as first. Looked crazy

 

[MasterOogway]

I use pothos in several exhibits, both herps and inverts, and don't have problems with any animals eating it. Oxalates are in almost every leafy green we humans eat. Also, from the little reading I've done on that it seems that it's not even poisonous, more of just physical damage from the oxalate crystals themselves causing irritation. That being said, I'm not sure I'd put one in a place where they'd intentionally be browsed on, but IDK. I may try it out with a roach or walking stick exhibit here soon. There are a lot of garbage 'pet care' websites out there though making it seem like even looking at pothos will cause your kidneys to up and quit. I've been manually breaking pothos plants with my hands for years and have not experienced irritation yet, but I suppose YMMV.

 

[davehuth]

Just to add another pro-pothos anecdote: For a year I kept pothos in a very large mixed tank of millipedes, superworm beetles, snails, isopods, springtails, harvestmen, and several roach species. I never observed any signs the plant was consumed, and didn't see any ill effects on animals.

 

[AuroraLights]

I just wanted to add that snake plant/Sansevaria is also known as "dumb cane" because it mildly toxic and causes numbness and swelling in the mouths of vertebrates who eat it.

I thought 'dumb cane' was Dieffenbachia? I think Sansevaria is much less toxic, although it still is a bit.

When I was researching plants to put in my millipede vivarium I made a list of some plants that weren't mentioned as toxic to any animals, to the best of my knowledge (mostly just from Google searches). Most of the data I found only mentioned vertebrates, but I still thought that was better than nothing. I'm also not an expert and I've never owned most of these so you should probably do your own research as well, but I thought this might help out. Also, bare in mind these are mostly tropical plants and roach enclosures are usually drier than millipedes' so a lot might not work.
I'm mostly using scientific names, where I've given just one name that means I think the entire genus is safe. The entries aren't in any particular order.

The list:
Most ferns, all bromeliads (including tillandsia), all mosses, possibly all orchids?, Fittonia, Chamaedora elegans, Maranta, Hypoestes, Pilea, Callisia repens, Chlorophytum, Selaginella, Calathea, Ludisia discolor, Peperomia, Cissus, Marcgravia, Muehlenbeckia complexa, Biophytum sensitivum, Pellionia, Ceropegia woodii

Of the above, Callisia repens and Chlorophytum are both used as food plants for reptiles.

 

[Feral]

Please note that I'm not saying either Sansevaria or pothos/Epipremnum is irritating topically, only that it's toxic orally and to ingest. I think these plants can be safely used with animals that are strictly carnivorous/insectivorous (outside of Sansevaria 's potential danger by being pointy and possibly a fall hazard). In fact, I regularly recommend Pothos/Epipremnum for suitable tarantula species' enclosures! It would be appropriate in the enclosures any carnivorous/insectivorous animals with compatible environmental needs.

BUT...
I double checked them both. I misremembered and was mistaken on the LEVEL of toxicity of Pothos to animals that may ingest it, as noted in humans and mammals, but it IS toxic if ingested. Here are reliable websites:
ASPCA- https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/toxic-and-non-toxic-plants/golden-pothos
National Pet Poison Helpline- https://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/poison/insoluble-oxalates/

Here is a reliable (but not necessarily complete) list of plants that can be toxic to reptiles (including pothos/Epipremnum):
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Rep...List-of-Plants-That-Can-Be-Toxic-To-Reptiles/

Please don't say toxic plants aren't toxic. Please don't spread potentially harmful misinformation!

Also, I don't think some people may understand how toxicity works- often it's not a entirely a matter of how toxic itself the compound is exactly, sometimes small quantities are harmless, but the concentration of the toxic compound in the substance in question and the combined toxicity of the amount of the compound that you were exposed to can determine toxicity. (Also, route of exposure matters in toxicity- topical exposure, oral/mucous membrane exposure, ingestion, inhalation, etc.) Like, the caffeine and theobromine of one single milk chocolate Hershey Kiss probably isn't going to really hurt an 50# Labrador. But that doesn't mean the compounds in chocolate aren't toxic to dogs, they totally are. Like about 8oz of the same milk chocolate could be toxic to a dog that size, and as little of 1oz of baker's chocolate (where the compounds are more concentrated) could be toxic to a dog that size. Even fatal, depending. (And higher amounts are obviously more toxic, and pre-existing conditions can affect susceptibility to intoxication.) A huge factor in toxicity is what concentration those compounds are found in for exposure. I mean, even plain water can be toxic in large enough quantity.

Secondly, don't confuse soluble and insoluble calcium oxalates. The soluble form isn't near as problematic if ingested. So type matters. Also, as explained above, many acceptable and healthy foods contain insoluble calcium oxalates in sufficiently low levels... but other substances have levels too high for an organism to process effectively. (And, thus, are toxic to that organism.) Again, it's about the concentration of those compounds in the substance and how much is ingested.

As far as Sansevaria being called "dumb cane", I double checked myself and yes, it seems that term is most often applied to Diffenbachia (also listed as toxic). Maybe it was just mistaken people I heard it from or maybe it's just a local thing here or maybe I'm just entirely wrong about the nickname. (Yet another good reason for scientific name usage!) But yes, you're right, "dumb cane" is most commonly used for Diffenbachia. Sansevaria, meanwhile, is definitely commonly called "mother-in-law's tongue" (I double checked) and it has that nickname for the same reason I stated earlier- it makes the mouth numb and swell. Also like Diffenbachia, it can cause GI problems. Here is some available info on Sansevaria toxicity:
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/toxic-and-non-toxic-plants/mother-laws-tongue
So the nickname I used isn't correct (thank you for the correction, @AuroraLights) but all the other information is.

But yes, these plants can definitely be toxic if ingested by mammals and reptiles, with an as yet unquantified (as far as I'm aware) danger to herbivorous/omnivorous inverts. Whether or not a specific invert actually EATS the plant is a different matter. But if there's a risk, why chance it?

Obviously we will all decide for ourselves and do as we see fit. And there's nothing wrong with sharing our own experiences with these plants. But, please, don't spread potentially harmful false information to other people- these plants could absolutely be toxic if ingested!

 

[Feral]

To add to the list of nontoxic plants already mentioned, I've heard of Portulacaria afra/elephant feed and various Agave species being used with herbivorous reptiles like bearded dragons and iguanas. I have no experience myself with those plants in any plant-munching animal enclosures, but they might be worth researching yourself if they interest you.

 

[AuroraLights]

Oh, I forgot to mention: another thing I like to do before adding a plant to an invert enclosure is check the list of common pests. There might not be much specific data on what is and isn't poisonous to inverts, but you can usually find lots of info on garden sites about which plants attract aphids/slugs/mealy bugs/etc. I figure if something is happily eaten by loads of pests then there's a good chance it's okay for our pet inverts as well. On the other hand, if you read that nothing ever touches it then I would be suspicious as to why not. Of course, the obvious downside to buying pesticide-free pest magnets is you might get more than you pay for, and not in a good way!

 

[Vulgarteacup]

Wow!! Thank you all for all this wonderful information!! I have a lot to chew on

To answer Feral’s questions
My enclosure is nearly always around 75%-80% humity.
I’m using coco fiber at the moment for substrate.
And there’s a flouresnt light not directly above the tank but was planning on getting them some lighting to make it a touch warmer for them. The temp never dips under 72 degrees.

When I choose the right plants, I was going to make a false bottom in the tank with a carbon fiber screen, some charcoal, and beef up the cocofiber a bit with some organic potting soil.

 

[Vulgarteacup]

Oh, I forgot to mention: another thing I like to do before adding a plant to an invert enclosure is check the list of common pests. There might not be much specific data on what is and isn't poisonous to inverts, but you can usually find lots of info on garden sites about which plants attract aphids/slugs/mealy bugs/etc. I figure if something is happily eaten by loads of pests then there's a good chance it's okay for our pet inverts as well. On the other hand, if you read that nothing ever touches it then I would be suspicious as to why not. Of course, the obvious downside to buying pesticide-free pest magnets is you might get more than you pay for, and not in a good way!

You are totally right! I found a little rouge millipede in my tank. My only lead is that he came from the new substrate I’m using. I named him Bebop

 

[MasterOogway]

I appreciate the discussions here; I do want to make the point though that we very definitely should not unquestioningly carry over vertebrate tox reports and information into invertebrates. The physiologies are *nothing* alike, and I suspect most of the data for dogs and cats is utterly irrelevant when it comes to our invertebrate friends. Food for thought at least.

 

[The Snark]

it seems that term is most often applied to Diffenbachia

and I suspect most of the data for dogs and cats is utterly irrelevant when it comes to our invertebrate friends.

Dieffenbachia, oxalates aka Dumb Cane. Hazardous to ruminants since they can digest more oxalates.
Hornworm caterpillars thrive on plants containing solanaceae which is toxic across a broad spectrum of animals but is also edible and harmless depending upon which animal and what part of the plant is eaten.
Oleander, oleandrigenin. Can be deadly to mammals and many insects but rodents and birds are relatively insensitive.
Cassava, containing highly toxic cyanogenic glucosides is a staple diet for humans world wide.
You can't go by rules of thumb across the animal spectrum.

 

[Feral]

I absolutely agree with @MasterOogway as far as that data pertinent to one animal, like a mammal or reptile, can sometimes be wholly incorrect when applied to an entirely different type of animal, like an invert. Absolutely. We should be careful about that.

On the other hand, and at the same time, I also think that we have to go on the best evidence we have available. If all we have is info on mammals or reptiles, then we have no choice but to consider it until invert-specific info comes along. That's the most conservative and safest approach.

Having said that, I asked myself "Is mammal and reptile information really all that's available on the toxicity of these plants?"
I was curious if there was actually invert-specific data available so I did a bit more digging...

I found a review article on calcium oxalates (like those in pothos/Epipremnum) and insects. It's here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1459329/
It discusses how calcium oxalates can work as a deterrent to insect munching, but when insects do eat it then it has a number of detrimental effects like abraded mouthparts, reduced growth rates, inhibited digestion, and increased mortality.

Since saponins are the compound that makes snake plant/Sansevaria toxic to mammals and reptiles, I started by searching for insects' reaction to saponins. I found this review article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6600540/
It discusses how plants use saponins as a deterrent to hungry bugs (just like how they use calcium oxalates for the same purpose). It then describes the effects of saponin ingestion in insects:
"Saponins are biochemical compounds or otherwise depicted as natural products, which have an extensive spectrum of natural performances. Numerous biological roles have been indicated for various saponins, [and they]...can influence feeding behavior, development, and cause mortality, development hindrance, limit the insects’ productiveness and protection against insects and other micro-organisms."

So it turns out, in these cases, the same compounds that are toxic to mammals and reptiles are also toxic and damaging for insects.
(I don't know if there might be any other compounds present in those plants that are nontoxic for mammals and reptiles but problematic or toxic for insects, in addition to the ones noted.)
Those are just first-page search results, I'm sure there's more info out there. But from my quick research I think it's safe to say these plants are not a good choice for insects who might eat vegetation.