b. dubia small wings???

Bloodletting

Arachnobaron
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Sep 29, 2003
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My colony of b. dubia seems to be lacking something in their diet. As the males mature, their wings are shriveled and small. Are they lacking something in their diet that is causing this problem with the wings?

The colony is about 3 years old and this is the first time this has happened.

any ideas what is causing this?

Thanks,

Scott
 

Talkenlate04

ArachnoGod
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Are the wings shrivled and small right after they molt and are still white? Or after they are nice and hardened up and showing color?
 

Bloodletting

Arachnobaron
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Are the wings shrivled and small right after they molt and are still white? Or after they are nice and hardened up and showing color?
It is after they have hardened. I have had the colony for over three years. I have watched thousands molt. It is just over the past couple of months this has been happening. You can see they have a strange look directly after molting. The wings just aren't straightening out.

Scott
 

james

Arachnobaron
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dubia

What are you feeding them? I know nobody has ever done a long term study on inbreeding, but I do notice Germany breeders that have big long term colonies have much smaller less productive dubia. I add new blood into my colonies all the time. I still think plenty of apples is the main key to my dubia.
James
www.blaberus.com
 

Talkenlate04

ArachnoGod
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I agree, I have a few friends that have old colonies. They must be 10th+ generation, and we are starting to see mutations and weird color patterns. I add a new blood line once in a while, my plan is at least once a year.
 

HepCatMoe

Arachnosquire
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smaller roaches for me is good. the adults are too big to feed to my geckos anyway. less productive might be ok. i havent had to start killing any roaches off yet.

wierd colors and mutations? cool!!! i cant wait!!

james, when you say you add new blood, do you mean wild caught? or just from diferant breeders?
 

Herp13

Arachnoknight
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Inbreeding isn't a good thing, and weird colors and mutations are also not good. Inbreeding also gives you a weeker bloodline and therefore the roaches are less resiliant and tough. All in all it's a bad thing, and adding new blood means putting roaches from outside the colony into the colony to mix in and add new genes(please correct me if i am wrong). Basically inbreeding is something you would want to avoid.
 

HepCatMoe

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Inbreeding isn't a good thing, and weird colors and mutations are also not good. Inbreeding also gives you a weeker bloodline and therefore the roaches are less resiliant and tough. All in all it's a bad thing, and adding new blood means putting roaches from outside the colony into the colony to mix in and add new genes(please correct me if i am wrong). Basically inbreeding is something you would want to avoid.
wierd colors = cool

wierder mutations = super cool

less resiliant = not so cool

as long as they dont just die out, id be thrilled to have a colony of freaks.

i could care less if they are weaker, smaller, whatever. it would be neat to watch the genetic drift.

as far as my questoin for adding new blood went, i was just curious if he would add wild caught roaches, or roaches from another breeder.
 

james

Arachnobaron
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breeding

Saying that they are two big to feed doesn't make much sense. The whole point of a colony is to breed adults and produce nymphs. Then you have a variety of sized nymphs to feed out. If any get to large they become adults to replace aging breeders. If your colony gets to big you cut the heat and production will slow. Inbreeding and getting a smaller weaker strain will only lead to the demize of the colony long term. If you still have to many you either sell them off or freeze them out. If more people and pet stores opened their minds to roaches you would be bringing excess to pet stores. I have a few that buy from me and they re-sell them very well once the customers get used to them.
James
www.blaberus.com

My spelling may suck, but that's what my parents get for crappy private schools preaching religion!!!!
 

HepCatMoe

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Saying that they are two big to feed doesn't make much sense.
the adult roaches are literally too big for my geckos to eat.

The whole point of a colony is to breed adults and produce nymphs. Then you have a variety of sized nymphs to feed out.
thats what im goin for.
 

Herp13

Arachnoknight
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I don't get whet you are saying. You said they are to big to feed, and now you are saying you are trying to get nymphs? It's kind of confusing. Either way, inbreeding is bad and shouldnt be something you are looking forward too, thats all i am trying to say, not to mention it is a bit cruel to your roaches also.
 

HepCatMoe

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the adults are too big. my geckos literally can not fit the adults in their mouth. but small nymphs will be the perfect size.

im not gonna argue about the inbreeding, but ive always wanted to watch something evolve over multiple generations. and granted genetic drift is not technically evolution, but given that i will be keeping them in such a drastically diferant environment than their native one, im sure the selective pressure will be drastically diferant also.

so there will be evolution, and add in the genetic drift, and itll be fun to watch and observe.

i also dont see how its "cruel". especially since i will be feeding them alive to my geckos.
 

Herp13

Arachnoknight
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Well, at least they served a purpose and are killed rather quickly. Mutations are a slow(possibly painful) death becuase of the abnormality of it all and it may interefer with reproduction, eating, breathing, molting, ect. I just think it is not something you would want to happen and be happy to watch.
 

bugmankeith

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Mabye they lack protein? Try feeding them cooked hamburger meat once every 2 weeks.
 

HepCatMoe

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Well, at least they served a purpose and are killed rather quickly. Mutations are a slow(possibly painful) death becuase of the abnormality of it all and it may interefer with reproduction, eating, breathing, molting, ect. I just think it is not something you would want to happen and be happy to watch.
the vast majority of mutations are neutral. not bad or good.

further, most of what people are seeing with the inbreeding is not driven by mutation but genetic stochasticity. this means that as a population becomes more and more gentically homogenous (inbred) recessive alleles are displayed more and more often. the bugs already had these genes, they simply were not displayed.

the bad aspect to inbreeding means that the population will become increasingly susceptible to future environmental changes becuase they will not have the genetic diversity to adapt fast enough.

but my bugs are not wild, and will not be living in the wild. they are living in a large rubbermaid container. my bugs will not be facing drought, earthquakes, or predators besides me. my bugs environment is static.

further, what do you think people are doing when they breed animals for a specific trait? how do you think we get flightless fruitflies or amelanistic geckos or even bloodhounds?
 

Herp13

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Well, as far as i know, in order to get specific traits, you selectivley breed. Big difference. You add two animals with recessive genes(it's a lot more complicated, but this is just an example) and the babies will carry on those recessive traits. Thats how you get amelanistic geckos, and etc. And I thought flightless fruit flies were genetically engineered? Either way, i just think it's not something to look forward too.
 

Drachenjager

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I don't get whet you are saying. You said they are to big to feed, and now you are saying you are trying to get nymphs? It's kind of confusing. Either way, inbreeding is bad and shouldnt be something you are looking forward too, thats all i am trying to say, not to mention it is a bit cruel to your roaches also.
LOL@cruel to roaches lol like dropping them in a container with a Tarantula, centipede or lizard isnt cruel? lol thats rich
 

Elytra and Antenna

Arachnoking
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My colony of b. dubia seems to be lacking something in their diet. As the males mature, their wings are shriveled and small. Are they lacking something in their diet that is causing this problem with the wings?

The colony is about 3 years old and this is the first time this has happened.

any ideas what is causing this?

Thanks,

Scott
Low temperature, overcrowding and lack of proper cage decorations can lead to wing deformities. You may have changed something you didn't notice or are keeping them at higher densities. Even the males whose wings are deformed due to external variables should be removed from the colony since they may also have a propensity to have crumpled wings under slightly adverse conditions.
 

Herp13

Arachnoknight
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Like i said, it's a fast death, and it serves a purpose(well, maybe not fast in some cases, but still).
 
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