B. albopilosum in a rain forrest setup with humidifier...

[Chris LXXIX]

Uhhhhhh.... I like Gin. And right now I'm having a beer. (I'm a Northerner - we drink beer, not wine )

Ah ah, Gin & Campari Soda is without a doubt a bomb

However the white wine of Reno (Rhine) valley isn't too bad, at the end

I love (Northern Italy) Müller-Thurgau combined with Campari Soda

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Obviously we can't keep the same Theraphosidae the same way. Reason: we live in different places, different houses (seems pointless but isn't) etc

My idea of 'bone dry' (which btw never is that strict, every two months I slightly moist part of the substrate even for my P.murinus) is different from, don't know... EulersK, that live in a kinda desert area?

So for the same reasons, for the parameters I offer to those T's that needs a level of humidity always constant (genus Ephebopus, Hysterocrates, Megaphobema... you name one) I'm helped by the fact that the weather of my area "helps" me, unlike, I don't know... someone living at the 12th floor of a New York city building with, don't know, a furnace on 24/7 in Winter <-- he/she will need a different approach, despite the general consensus care.

Things like this

 

[Trenor]

Seriously? Your all over the place man, clearly misunderstood my point. Never said to keep them "bone dry"... you can definitely overflow their water bowls, but the sub in the enclosure should be predominantly dry.

And I never advocated a bone dry environment.

You're right. In this thread neither of you stated that. Bone dry with a water dish is often the captive care instructions I see gave out for this species on here though and I guess I incorrectly took that for what was meant.

Captivity is captivity and we need to stick to what works in captivity and the optimal way to keep them in captivity will by necessity be different than in the wild.

I never said the we should simulate 100% like they were in the wild. I pointed out they were likely able to tolerate more moisture than we normally say to gave them due to the environment and location they came from. Just like a lot of fossorial Asian tarantulas are kept more moist based on where they are from.

Another point was that a wide range of things work in captivity. I do think that they are more adapted to the environment they were collected from than anything we can do for them in captivity. So the captive environment is less optimal then their natural one but that is just my opinion. Just like the animals in most zoos. Because they have a longer life expectancy (less chance of death) and never have to worry about food etc. doesn't mean their zoo home is superior to their natural environment. I do agree that since we can't simulate all the conditions of their natural habitat trying to simulate one or two is likely to throw thing off and cause issues in captivity.

In both posts, based on what you said, I stated I wouldn't keep this species that way.

 

[Trenor]

Obviously we can't keep the same Theraphosidae the same way. Reason: we live in different places, different houses (seems pointless but isn't) etc

My idea of 'bone dry' (which btw never is that strict, every two months I slightly moist part of the substrate even for my P.murinus) is different from, don't know... EulersK, that live in a kinda desert area?

So for the same reasons, for the parameters I offer to those T's that needs a level of humidity always constant (genus Ephebopus, Hysterocrates, Megaphobema... you name one) I'm helped by the fact that the weather of my area "helps" me, unlike, I don't know... someone living at the 12th floor of a New York city building with, don't know, a furnace on 24/7 in Winter <-- he/she will need a different approach, despite the general consensus care.

Things like this

I agree with this. Even when care conditions vary based on you're location and other factor they adapt pretty well. I don't think there is a one size fits all care sheet that can work for everyone.

 

[boina]

You're right. In this thread neither of you stated that. Bone dry with a water dish is often the captive care instructions I see gave out for this species on here though and I guess I incorrectly took that for what was meant.


I never said the we should simulate 100% like they were in the wild. I pointed out they were likely able to tolerate more moisture than we normally say to gave them due to the environment and location they came from. Just like a lot of fossorial Asian tarantulas are kept more moist based on where they are from.

Another point was that a wide range of things work in captivity. I do think that they are more adapted to the environment they were collected from than anything we can do for them in captivity. So the captive environment is less optimal then their natural one but that is just my opinion. Just like the animals in most zoos. Because they have a longer life expectancy (less chance of death) and never have to worry about food etc. doesn't mean their zoo home is superior to their natural environment. I do agree that since we can't simulate all the conditions of their natural habitat trying to simulate one or two is likely to throw thing off and cause issues in captivity.

In both posts, based on what you said, I stated I wouldn't keep this species that way.

You know, I've had two beers by now and it's 2.30 am where I am, so I'm not going to reply to this right now, cause I'd mess it up - just so you don't think I'm ignoring you

 

[Trenor]

You know, I've had two beers by now and it's 2.30 am where I am, so I'm not going to reply to this right now, cause I'd mess it up - just so you don't think I'm ignoring you

Haha, no worries. Enjoy the beers!

 

[miss moxie]

Uhhhhhh.... I like Gin. And right now I'm having a beer. (I'm a Northerner - we drink beer, not wine )

You live in Germany. I pretty much assume you browse the threads with a beer in one hand and schnitzel in the other hand while typing with your nose through sheer force of will.

 

[keks]

You live in Germany. I pretty much assume you browse the threads with a beer in one hand and schnitzel in the other hand while typing with your nose through sheer force of will.

Germans from the north don't eat schnitzel, they eat Labskaus . But their beer is good, it's more a bitter one ^^.

Fact is: This B. albopilosum in the pet shop is kept on the absolute wrong side (what a surprise ). Poor thing . What size is this tarantula? Is it a sling or an adult one?

 

[boina]

Germans from the north don't eat schnitzel, they eat Labskaus . But their beer is good, it's more a bitter one ^^.

Fact is: This B. albopilosum in the pet shop is kept on the absolute wrong side (what a surprise ). Poor thing . What size is this tarantula? Is it a sling or an adult one?

It's an adult - I might just print out various different care sheets from the internet and try to explain the concept of 'humidity' to them, though I'm not hopeful

 

[boina]

You're right. In this thread neither of you stated that. Bone dry with a water dish is often the captive care instructions I see gave out for this species on here though and I guess I incorrectly took that for what was meant.


I never said the we should simulate 100% like they were in the wild. I pointed out they were likely able to tolerate more moisture than we normally say to gave them due to the environment and location they came from. Just like a lot of fossorial Asian tarantulas are kept more moist based on where they are from.

Another point was that a wide range of things work in captivity. I do think that they are more adapted to the environment they were collected from than anything we can do for them in captivity. So the captive environment is less optimal then their natural one but that is just my opinion. Just like the animals in most zoos. Because they have a longer life expectancy (less chance of death) and never have to worry about food etc. doesn't mean their zoo home is superior to their natural environment. I do agree that since we can't simulate all the conditions of their natural habitat trying to simulate one or two is likely to throw thing off and cause issues in captivity.

In both posts, based on what you said, I stated I wouldn't keep this species that way.

Good morning

I think we pretty much agree on how a B. albopilosum can be kept and should be kept, so that's not the point.

I don't agree with the "their natural environment is better" argument but I guess we'll just have to disagree on that.

The zoo argument suffers from the same problems as the 'humans in a comfortable cage' argument - most zoo animals are mammals that do have more complicated requirements regarding stimulation and entertainment than a tarantula. On the other hand a naked mole rat will have a great life in a zoo and an axolotl will definitely be better off in a zoo than it's natural, highly polluted and constantly declining, environment.


"I do agree that since we can't simulate all the conditions of their natural habitat trying to simulate one or two is likely to throw thing off and cause issues in captivity."

That's basically my main point, so thank you for agreeing with that

 

[keks]

It's an adult - I might just print out various different care sheets from the internet and try to explain the concept of 'humidity' to them, though I'm not hopeful

Maybe you can do wonders .

 

[spotropaicsav]

Maybe you can do wonders .

I'm sweating just reading about all the mentions of humidity in this thread... here's to hoping @boina has some success if she decides to talk again with the pet shop

 

[Trenor]

On the other hand a naked mole rat will have a great life in a zoo and an axolotl will definitely be better off in a zoo than it's natural, highly polluted and constantly declining, environment.

Assuming the zoo can fulfill the same needs that it's colony does or if they get a whole colony it can give them the 2-3 miles they need for the colony tunnels. Along with everything they can get in their native habitat that we may not even know they need. We are putting it in a enclosed space, it has no way to tell us what it needs if it's not getting something and our best metric of how it doing is it hasn't died and it's reproducing. One extra hot summer I was walking the river near Grandpa's place and saw deep furrows in the bank. The deer were digging it up to get extra minerals it had in the clay. I guessing it was the salt but it could be other things as well. They knew what they needed and they went and got it. In a enclosure it can't do any of that.

As far as the axolotl goes... you can't point to a ecosystem humans pretty much destroyed and say our care is better than what it would have got without us crapping all over it's home in the wild. If we hadn't messed it up then it would likely have been just fine where it lived natively. We have made it's home pretty much unlivable and now we can only offer it a new one that is only as good as our basic understanding of what it needs. So, it's better than what it has now but likely not better than what it would be living in if humans hadn't screwed it over to start with.

Even without us messing things up, species have gone extinct when their habitat conditions become to unfavorable for them. Baring that though I think their native habitats will always win over a simulated one. Mainly because you can only simulate what you know and only so closely.

That's basically my main point, so thank you for agreeing with that

I hinted at that in my first post.

Enclosures makes it harder to control air flow and other factors so they would become stuffy where heavy rains and standing water in the wild would not be.

 

[Ellenantula]

I've no problem at all with a dampened area in a B albo enclosure or overflowing water bowl from time to time.

I agree with @boina -- I am sure lots of high rains and humidity (rainy season) do occur in natural habitat -- but those Ts in the wild aren't surrounded with walls, as our enclosures are. When you trap that environment into a captivity enclosure -- it can only smell of disaster. No matter how well you ventilate - you can't match open space and breezes without also creating a very escapable enclosure. Surprised if they don't have mushrooms growing too!
And I guessing that store isn't also mimicking a dry season for this T there.

Good luck in reasoning with that pet store. I would focus on clammy/stuffiness of enclosure.

[okay, secretly, I wish you could buy that T and rescue it. But I get that won't solve the real problem -- they will simply get another one and keep it the same way. (fingers crossed you can reason with them) ]

 

[boina]

Good luck in reasoning with that pet store. I would focus on clammy/stuffiness of enclosure.

I think that's what I'm going to try

 

[boina]

Assuming the zoo can fulfill the same needs that it's colony does or if they get a whole colony it can give them the 2-3 miles they need for the colony tunnels. Along with everything they can get in their native habitat that we may not even know they need. We are putting it in a enclosed space, it has no way to tell us what it needs if it's not getting something and our best metric of how it doing is it hasn't died and it's reproducing. One extra hot summer I was walking the river near Grandpa's place and saw deep furrows in the bank. The deer were digging it up to get extra minerals it had in the clay. I guessing it was the salt but it could be other things as well. They knew what they needed and they went and got it. In a enclosure it can't do any of that.

You won't be surprised to hear that I disagree. Nature not only offers the animals in it all they need but also a lot of things they don't need - at all. Question is, do mole rats need to make 2 to 3 miles of tunnels out of the need to make tunnels or out of necessity - because otherwise they won't find enough food in their dry grassland habitat. (Btw. those 2 to 3 miles are not in a straight line, so the actual area of the burrow is a lot smaller). And nature not only has a quick death through predation on offer but also long drawn out deaths through injury, starvation, parasites, whatever - there's a lot of suffering involved. I think it's a question no one can answer: would an animal trade freedom - including the freedom to die a horrible and slow death - for a soft life in a cage?

My rats chose the cage. I breed feeder rats for my snakes and have a small colony. I keep them in a shed and since I really don't believe in factory farming they don't have cages but enclosures of 5 square meters with plenty of stuff for entertainment. One day I accidentally left the females enclosure open. When I came back 24 hours later 12 of the 16 rats were still there. Moreover, 3 of the 4 missing rats turned up the next day and went back into their enclosure with very little prompting. As I said, those aren't tame rats, I don't interact with them, they are feeders. Obviously they chose their enclosure over freedom. And this is the country side where wild rats are plentiful, so nature around here has everything a rat needs. (Actually since it were the females who got out a year ago at this point in time I'm actually cultivating mixed rats - half fancy rats, half wild rats....)

And the point of the story: It's not that easy. Life in the wild has just as many disadvantages as life in a cage (ok, depending on the cage of course) and we have no way of knowing what an animal would chose.

 

[u bada]

Sometimes I wonder if pet stores purposely keep tarantulas in bad conditions so t keepers will then feel obliged to save them (maybe other animals too, lol)... good luck with the pet store!

 

[keks]

I wonder how pet stores can call themselves professionals. They have mostly not the slightest idea of the animals they sell .

 

[Trenor]

Nature not only offers the animals in it all they need but also a lot of things they don't need - at all. Question is, do mole rats need to make 2 to 3 miles of tunnels out of the need to make tunnels or out of necessity - because otherwise they won't find enough food in their dry grassland habitat. (Btw. those 2 to 3 miles are not in a straight line, so the actual area of the burrow is a lot smaller). And nature not only has a quick death through predation on offer but also long drawn out deaths through injury, starvation, parasites, whatever - there's a lot of suffering involved. I think it's a question no one can answer: would an animal trade freedom - including the freedom to die a horrible and slow death - for a soft life in a cage?

I don't know if they need the tunnels primarily for room or to get food. I am aware it's not in a straight line (that's why I used a linear measurement and not an area one since I don't know what acreage they might use up for 2-3 miles of tunnels). Since they don't go down deep like ants and keeping their tunnels near the surface even weaving a grid pattern would take up a pretty large space. Regardless, pick most any animal you've seen in the zoo and think if they could possibility have everything they needed or would have got if they were in the wild.

My rats chose the cage. I breed feeder rats for my snakes and have a small colony. I keep them in a shed and since I really don't believe in factory farming they don't have cages but enclosures of 5 square meters with plenty of stuff for entertainment. One day I accidentally left the females enclosure open. When I came back 24 hours later 12 of the 16 rats were still there. Moreover, 3 of the 4 missing rats turned up the next day and went back into their enclosure with very little prompting. As I said, those aren't tame rats, I don't interact with them, they are feeders. Obviously they chose their enclosure over freedom. And this is the country side where wild rats are plentiful, so nature around here has everything a rat needs. (Actually since it were the females who got out a year ago at this point in time I'm actually cultivating mixed rats - half fancy rats, half wild rats....)

Your rats choose easy food and it's likely they didn't assess the situation beyond that. They, like field rats and house mice, go where the food is. Had you left a pile of food outside the shed or outside in a catch trap (and they found it) they would have turned up there until it ran out. Since they are very trainable (regardless if you tired to or not) just a regular feeding routine in the same spot would cause them to show up there at feeding time where they know food will be. We kept most of our grain feeds in one barn on the farm. It was nothing to see rats show up in the feed room day after day (till the cats/traps got them). They were not looking to give up their freedom for a kind safe home. Just easy access to food same as yours.

They have no clue that being in that cage is keeping them safe from predators (only you understand that) any more than a tarantula is aware it is safer in the enclosure than in the wild. Again, pick any common zoo animal and then think about your local zoo. Even though ours is a great zoo, with a lot more room than most I have seen, few of those animals would choose to live confined like that. None of the silver backs would walk back into their compound if you had it on the edge of the wilds where they came from and opened the doors. They would be gone like the others released. Our raptor rescue cares for a large amount of birds of prey. Sometimes the care goes on for years getting them healthy enough to go back into the wild. I asked one of the guys giving a talk if any of the birds they care for came back after being released. He said he didn't know about earlier but not since he had been working there which was a little over 10 years. These animals were pampered, in some cases a year or more, yet none opted to come back once given the chance to go. Would some animals stick around? Sure, like the rats they will stay where the food is even with a barn full of traps and cats trying to kill them.

And the point of the story: It's not that easy. Life in the wild has just as many disadvantages as life in a cage (ok, depending on the cage of course) and we have no way of knowing what an animal would chose.

We don't have a way to know what an individual animal would choose if it had the capacity to understand captivity, safety and freedom. I do think the more an animal understands those things the less likely they will give up freedom for captivity/safety.

 

[Mila]

Can't we all just agree that if a T can molt, eat, drink, hide and remain disease free they don't really care about anything else?