Avicularia purpurea - CF or TF ?

[Storm76]

Hey people,

since some of us kinda "hijacked" a thread not meant for this discussion, I think it's time to open one up for that subject.

For some time, I'd say nearly 1/2 year, there's some debate going on in German forums about the A.purpurea "true form" and CF "color form". It's basically about the fact, that there are for one those purpureas that do have black / purple hairs only (this one is designated "true form" currently) and then there's the other one with white hair tips, which they started labeling as CF over here. Now, I know that the Avicularia genus is messed up anyways, but this is not about a wrong identification (no, not talking about the Peru "spec purple"), but instead about the differences in coloration of the purpureas. People basically try to find out where this CF surfaced first and where.

Usually, they do look (correct lighting assumed, else more black) metallic purple up to a velvet black from what I know / have seen (don't own one, yet). The CF form apparently has a lighter purple and has those white hair tips which I mentioned before.

I'll try dig up some more information about this, since I remember having read about it on some UK forums as well. Until then I'd love to hear from others if they have heard any more information on this?

Cheers,
Jan

 

[mcluskyisms]

The "cf" is an abbreviation for confer, which is Latin for compare, so it doesn't stand for colour form. Also, I have never really heard of people referring to Avicularia purpurea in "true form". As for the locality of Avicularia cf. purpurea I would expect it to be in or near to Ecuador where the species is from, and the tarantula itself most likely a regional variant of Avicularia purpurea.

 

[Storm76]

Then "RCF" would stand for what exactly? I'm sorry, yes I'm kinda new still but I've not heard of that meaning of CF before ever. From what I read in other forums, as well as books, it stands for "color form".

As for their origin, I know it's Ecuador. My point is that there are currently two "kinds" of purpurea and that at least over here in Europe people start keeping a close eye on not to mix them when breeding. Anyways, more info will follow once I've found more researching of that subject.

 

[xhexdx]

"RCF" = Red color form.

Avicularia cf. purpurea = confer.

Two different abbreviations with two different meanings.

 

[mark e sic]

wouldnt not breeding them together promote the actual division between both colors? What I mean is all you are really doing is getting all the lighter colored avics and breeding them together... Selective breeding?

 

[jayefbe]

wouldnt not breeding them together promote the actual division between both colors? What I mean is all you are really doing is getting all the lighter colored avics and breeding them together... Selective breeding?

At this point, it's unclear whether the "true form" or the cf. purpurea are the same or separate species. Basically, the cf. means that it's most likely a certain species but hasn't been properly identified. Until it is, they should be kept separate from each other. That's the only way to maintain genetic diversity in captive breeding populations. As soon as they start being mixed, there's no way of regaining the separate forms if they do turn out to be separate species.

 

[Storm76]

Thanks, jayefbe. That's what I was meaning. Might have explained myself poorly before there, sorry 'bout that.

EDIT: I've actually found some pictures from a debate on this subject in one of the german forums. This thread was from 2008 already though so I recon that this debate has been around for some longer than assumed timewise...

A. purpurea (with white hair-tips)
http://srv029.pixpack.net/20080421195704014_qamxhhppgx.jpg

A. purpurea ("blue")
[http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3746/purpurealilatz6.jpg

A. purpurea ("real" one)
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg241/scaled.php?server=241&filename=comp1002631kleinlp7.jpg&res=medium

 

[mark e sic]

I didnt think about that i guess they realy could be a different sp.

 

[Storm76]

Personally, since I am not a reasearcher in that part, I don't know. I'm just posting this here, to see if anyone might be able to provide some insight in this debate. What's kinda insteresting the most though, is the fact that in the US there obviously not really any discussion on this stuff so far? Or people haven't seen / heard of it really? Just wondering. I know, purpureas are kinda hard to get, it's the same over here in Germany. Overall though, there's a lot that breed them, just that one must know which "form" you want. Basically you can get each of them and I might do that even at some point, just because I'd like to see their diversity with my own eyes in front of me. The ones I could get probably around March/April would be the "true" from, although there's also a possibility for the "white hair tips" one. Either way, since it isn't even scientifically proven that Avics have been mixed up in the past, who can tell which one is really a species of its own...

If I find anything else, I'll update this.

 

[zonbonzovi]

Hey Storm,

I don't want to belabor the point too much but I really think the debate is an artifact of what is sometimes snidely referred to as "Kodak taxonomy". There's also a strong chance that this whole thing was generated by an unscrupulous vendor. The description of a "blue" form and accompanying photo raises flags for me. I'm certainly no researcher either but I can't recall any species being separated from another because of a slight color variance. Here's a couple photos taken under the same lighting conditions but from different angles:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/49007985@N04/4491614477/in/photostream/lightbox/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49007985@N04/4491614477/in/photostream/lightbox/

I wish I had taken some in artificial light because the white tipped setae seemingly disappear w/o natural sunlight. I've noticed the same with males. Every sling I've seen from 3 different sacs displays the white tipped setae, as well. I guess all we can do is wait and see if there are any future taxo. changes but personally I'd have to see more physical differences for these to be referred to as anything but Avicularia purpurea. I'd also hate to see this affect breeders' wariness to pair this species with out more concrete proof that they are, in fact, different.

Interesting topic, though

 

[Storm76]

Hey zonbonzovi,

thanks for the clarification. My problem is, that there is in fact a this difference with the white hair tips. I have visited 3 T stores here that actually offered A. purpurea. All but ONE had white hair tips from those I saw. I also ordered such a one from a respected breeder here, but I won't get it before sometime around April, I guess. I'd love to help with some own pics, but alas cannot right now. From those 3, one looked intensely purple metallic, the other was nearly jet black, no matter how you put the light when I saw it. So I guess color variations are either a) just a part of this species, or b) there is a difference or c) the worst: Some breeders mixed them up and you won't be able to tell what is what anymore, just calling ALL of them A. purpurea.


That's just my view.

 

[macbaffo]

R: Avicularia purpurea - CF or TF ?

Hey Jan, any news about the slings?did you get them? Are they similar or there are some differences?

 

[Storm76]

Hey Jan, any news about the slings?did you get them? Are they similar or there are some differences?

I didn't get the sling as they were sold out, Mac. Sorry.

You can find some pics of both forms on this breeders website if you like to look into it: CLICK

 

[macbaffo]

R: Avicularia purpurea - CF or TF ?

What a pity! I waited so patiently...I was looking forward for a vid of yours about them :-(

I hoped for a first hand experience review but thanks for the link!

 

[jdl]

I have been wondering about purpurea also, but my question is about white banding on the legs. I have one female with white bands around the patella and one mature male that has no banding on the legs whatsoever.

 

[Storm76]

What a pity! I waited so patiently...I was looking forward for a vid of yours about them :-(

I hoped for a first hand experience review but thanks for the link!

Sorry, I might get some this year sometimes, though. I'll let you know in case, Mac!

I have been wondering about purpurea also, but my question is about white banding on the legs. I have one female with white bands around the patella and one mature male that has no banding on the legs whatsoever.

If I'm not mistaken, that's connected to age - maybe Brett can chime in on it?

Mine don't have white bandings...I think it's a trick of light and angle you view them from maybe?

 

[macbaffo]

R: Avicularia purpurea - CF or TF ?

Thanks buddy!

 

[BRavorius]

Hey zonbonzovi,

thanks for the clarification. My problem is, that there is in fact a this difference with the white hair tips. I have visited 3 T stores here that actually offered A. purpurea. All but ONE had white hair tips from those I saw. I also ordered such a one from a respected breeder here, but I won't get it before sometime around April, I guess. I'd love to help with some own pics, but alas cannot right now. From those 3, one looked intensely purple metallic, the other was nearly jet black, no matter how you put the light when I saw it. So I guess color variations are either a) just a part of this species, or b) there is a difference or c) the worst: Some breeders mixed them up and you won't be able to tell what is what anymore, just calling ALL of them A. purpurea.


That's just my view.

I don't know about Germany, but in my home town in San Diego, CA, I never really trust the pet shop labels of critters most of the time. Especially Tarantulas. I've seen signs from "large tarantula" to "black spider". Even if it is named specifically "A. Purpurea", it could easily be confused with another Avic species physically since 1) Their whole genus is all types of twisted and mixed up 2) many of them look similar. For all you know, it could have been some weirdly colored A. Metallica (or something else, was just an example).

I just have a hard time taking someone's word for stuff, like a pet shop, on what they are actually selling. Especially if it's a specific species of Avicularia.

I don't even want to tell you how many differences I've seen in different batches or pictures of A. Purpurea, A. Bicegoi, A. Metallica, and Avicularia sp Peru Purple. It gives me a headache. If you don't believe me, go to google images and type in: "Avicularia Urticans" and look at all the different variations (color wise) that come up.

Also, lighting has a HUGE affect on what the colors look like on a Tarantula. The brighter or more vibrant the Tarantula is, the most variation is possible with different lightning. I can't stress this enough.