Avics/Cross Ventilation-- European vs USA Husbandry?

[viper69]

I love Avics. Lately, I have seen more Europeans posting pics/vids of their Avic containers, including those that breed Avics.

Which has led me to question what is the "proper" geometry to achieve proper air flow for Avics?

The European T community often uses glass vivariums quite similar to the one used for Dart Frogs. Europeans have a very advanced vivarium hobby compared to the USA, ie it's more mature in my opinion.

These containers the Europeans use have a metal screen at the back on the top glass section, and one screen at the lower front, surrounded by glass on all other sides w/out holes.

The USA community has access to acrylic containers (with obvious cross ventilation on the sides at a minimum), and the Exo-Terras from Haagen (a European company, German if I recall), which are modeled after the design below. The Exo-Terra's have top ventilation, the plastic below an Exo-Terra's front opening doors offers ventilation as well, as does the gap between the glass doors. How much ventilation comes through the door gaps and front piece for either setup remains unknown to me.

I don't know why acrylic containers are not as widely available in Europe as they are in the USA.


On the forum here, USA members (myself included) mention "cross ventilation" is needed each time we see some dead Avic post or questions about an owner's Avic container.

We usually recommend numerous holes in the sides of the container for proper cross-ventilation. I have yet to read a response from a USA keeper that has suggested a European style of design (unless they mention an Exo-Terra).

The European glass containers do not have the air flow design that we in the USA almost always suggest, yet the Europeans are doing quite well in raising and breeding their Avics in very different configurations than what most people in the USA use.

So, the question is does the geometry matter at all to the Avics? It seems it doesn't. I know very little about aerodynamics, and the flow of gases, so who knows.

Or is the importance on proper gas exchange regardless of how it occurs when it comes to raising and breeding Avics?

I'd be interested in any input, esp from the European keepers, long time Avic breeders, and other thoughtful individuals.

 

[louise f]

Well viper

i do have the avics in those glass vivariums you are talking about. With no problems breeding them or keeping them in those setups. It works out very well.
This is succesfull breeding of avicularia aurantiaca.


But i am still hooked at those acrylic setups you Americans have, they are soooo nice

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Ventilation is important and the use of cross ventilation specifically has always perplexed me. In the past, I have successfully kept Avicularia species in Kritter Keepers turned on end and taped plastic on the bottom to hold substrate. The plastic screen-like tops provided ample ventilation without having to drill additional holes on all sides. For spiderlings, I used 16 ounce deli cups (the tall ones) and punched many holes in the top and a row around the top under the lid. The point wasn't to provide cross ventilation though. The point of the row of holes around the top under the lid was to provide adequate ventilation when I stacked the cups on top of each other. I don't think there is a formula to it or that the Europeans know something we don't. If the container is small and somewhat air tight, like these small fragile acrylic containers people use, there is not enough space at the top or side to put enough holes for air flow so one must put them on all sides. If the container is large, there is enough space to be more flexible in how ventilation is done.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Couldn't agree more with Louise. I use those (but more taller) for arboreals (no 'Avics') and they are perfect. In Germany are very cheap, btw.
My 0.1 P.cambridgei is housed in one of those, 60 cm height.

There's acrylic here of course in those type of similar (but they aren't the same chain) Home Depot like shops we have here but you have to make one for yourself, not everyone wants, not everyone is good etc

USA is the place for A Class acrylic T's enclosure. The European counterparts had seen here were imitations and not so good IMO.

However when it comes to arboreals those glass enclosures for life, for me. They work, they are cheap... i've changed my mind a bit, about acrylic enclosures. Granted, they are cool, but if you think about custom taxes and shipping prices it's not worth, especially if you want several of those.

 

[YagerManJennsen]

So did I just waste $14 on buying new plastic containers that I put holes in the side of? Either way, I like the new enclosures.

 

[viper69]

Well viper

i do have the avics in those glass vivariums you are talking about. With no problems breeding them or keeping them in those setups. It works out very well.
This is succesfull breeding of avicularia aurantiaca.
View attachment 207375 View attachment 207376

But i am still hooked at those acrylic setups you Americans have, they are soooo nice

It was your Avic breeding video that had me thinking more about this actually . I never though there was an issue w/that style of container. I've seen these glass containers from the European vivarium hobby, esp frogs, so they weren't new to me. But the idea of holes in direct opposition is clearly not what most of you use it seems, but are doing so quite successfully Mrs. sp Guyana Blue

Ventilation is important and the use of cross ventilation specifically has always perplexed me. If the container is small and somewhat air tight, like these small fragile acrylic containers people use, there is not enough space at the top or side to put enough holes for air flow so one must put them on all sides. If the container is large, there is enough space to be more flexible in how ventilation is done.

Apho, I was hoping you'd drop in on this one. I agree on the perplexing part, even though I do it myself hahah In point of fact, when I increased air flow and decreased humidity many years ago, that's when I started having success with Avics.

However, I believe you are correct when comparing containers esp the large ones. I put my MM A. metallica in a ExoTerra Nano Tall, and he did quite fine.

I wish I knew what level of air flow was key to their successful rearing/propagation. The mysteries of nature.

 

[louise f]

Couldn't agree more with Louise. I use those (but more taller) for arboreals (no 'Avics') and they are perfect. In Germany are very cheap, btw.
My 0.1 P.cambridgei is housed in one of those, 60 cm height.

I use them for all my aboreals as well. In Denmark they are very cheap too

 

[viper69]

I use them for all my aboreals as well. In Denmark they are very cheap too

"Everything" is more expensive in Euroland than in the USA, except Ts and T supplies...Go Figure.

 

[louise f]

It was your Avic breeding video that had me thinking more about this actually . I never though there was an issue w/that style of container. I've seen these glass containers from the European vivarium hobby, esp frogs, so they weren't new to me. But the idea of holes in direct opposition is clearly not what most of you use it seems, but are doing so quite successfully Mrs. sp Guyana Blue

well allright, i did not think of that it is always good with some new threads, bring it on.

can`t say it is a issue. no complaining here


Apho, I was hoping you'd drop in on this one. I agree on the perplexing part, even though I do it myself hahah In point of fact, when I increased air flow and decreased humidity many years ago, that's when I started having success with Avics.

However, I believe you are correct when comparing containers esp the large ones. I put my MM A. metallica in a ExoTerra Nano Tall, and he did quite fine.

I wish I knew what level of air flow was key to their successful rearing/propagation. The mysteries of nature.

"Everything" is more expensive in Euroland than in the USA, except Ts and T supplies...Go Figure.

I give you totally right about that. And it is not fair, i really think that the prices should be equally. feel sorry for you Americans.

 

[lunarae]

Well does the material have something to do with it perhaps? not necessarily with airflow but perhaps humidity? I mean acrylic/plastic compared to glass. It would be interesting if someone could get two exact setups made, same number and placement of holes and such. And do treatment for both exactly the same and see how the humidity levels hold inside. Perhaps acrylic requires the cross ventilation because of how it holds humidity compared to glass?

 

[louise f]

Well does the material have something to do with it perhaps? not necessarily with airflow but perhaps humidity? I mean acrylic/plastic compared to glass. It would be interesting if someone could get two exact setups made, same number and placement of holes and such. And do treatment for both exactly the same and see how the humidity levels hold inside. Perhaps acrylic requires the cross ventilation because of how it holds humidity compared to glass?

That actually could be really interesting.

 

[BobBarley]

Maybe it's the structure of a typical European house vs. the structure of a typical American house?

No idea, just speculation, here are a few links for anyone interested:
https://www.builddirect.com/blog/homes-in-europe-homes-in-america-the-future-of-housing/

Here's a quote from this website: http://www.travelingigloo.com/expat-in-germany-blog/2013/3/10/german-homes-vs-american-homes "In most American houses there are vents that run throughout the home to filter and circulate the air. The bathrooms have vents as well. In Germany, however, there aren’t any vents. This came as a surprise for me when we moved here. I just assumed all homes had vents. In Germany, the way to ventilate your home is to open a window and let the fresh air in – even in the winter. I love a nice cold breeze so this hasn’t been a problem for me. I also prefer the fresh air over the stuffy ventilated rooms. "

 

[lunarae]

I can say that I have my A. versicolor in a 2.5 gallon glass set up. I have pictures I posted of it, I fixed the door so it's just acrylic with holes rather then mesh screen. I don't have any other holes for ventilation. Something I am considering changing just cause I've become a little paranoid about it, but right now she's in premolt so I'm not messing with her. But she seems perfectly healthy and has been for months. I have live plants in there with her that help with humidity and I think the air quality as well though. I think that makes a difference personally. But plastic/acrylic can absorb a level of moisture I think where as glass doesn't and I think maybe that makes a difference. I don't know though, I'm no expert on such things. I think it would be an interesting experiment to do though and see if it's the material that makes the difference.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I love a nice cold breeze so this hasn’t been a problem for me. I also prefer the fresh air over the stuffy ventilated rooms. "

Well, nothing beats Italian houses, then. All the ventilation and fresh air you need, thanks to economic crisis

 

[louise f]

Well, nothing beats Italian houses, then. All the ventilation and fresh air you need, thanks to economic crisis

View attachment 207377

Good god, you made me laugh to tears there.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Good god, you made me laugh to tears there.

I can't resist, it's more stronger than me... when i read something that trigger my mind, i associate something always. In real life as well
Granted was sarcastic now but serious at the same time

 

[jrh3]

so are we leaning towards humidity being the issue, not ventilation? also depending on what part of the world each is in matters for humidity. Some may need the cross vents to dry the cage out some may not. i only keep my water bottle cap full with alot of cross vents and this is working fine. maybe it comes down to what your local climate is that is needed to make up to equal what is needed for them.

 

[louise f]

I can't resist, it's more stronger than me... when i read something that trigger my mind, i associate something always. In real life as well
Granted was sarcastic now but serious at the same time

Creepy, sounds just like me.

But i mean come on, first mister driller killer and now this. I could not help myself laughing so hard
Kindda sad it is that way though

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Creepy, sounds just like me.

But i mean come on, first mister driller killer and now this. I could not help myself laughing so hard
Kindda sad it is that way though

Ah ah ah of course, i change subject by the moment.

CB talked about people drilling holes for customers... me 2 + 2 = Driller Killer!!!

I'm happy that i made you laugh, Louise. In life it's very easy to make people cry, or feel bad. Better "lolz"

 

[louise f]

Ah ah ah of course, i change subject by the moment.

CB talked about people drilling holes for customers... me 2 + 2 = Driller Killer!!!

I'm happy that i made you laugh, Louise. In life it's very easy to make people cry, or feel bad. Better "lolz"

Haha of course. I find it easy to laugh, i am almost always a really happy person, no joke
Yeah that is so true.