Avic sling help!

[cold blood]

Problem with avics, as I see it, is that it seems that most new avic buyers go on and on reading care sheets (and seek help in places like this only after there is a problem), these caresheets always stress humidity (and temp) to the point of paranoia, yet almost none of them I have ever read, say anything about the importance of ventilation or anchor points. All these people spend un-needed cash buying misters, automatic misters, heaters and worthless hygrometers, which vastly over-complicate everything. This vast...I'll call it misinformation...is the reason why so many newbies have issues with avics and why so many suddenly go downhill and start another "my dead/dying avic" thread. These "caresheets" that are so popular only lead to a "self fulfilling prophecy" of avic difficulties.

I ignored caresheets and got my avic info from a variety of different people that actually had significant long term success (here on AB) and did what the caresheets warned me about (basically ignoring humidity) and have found them, even as small slings, to be extremely easy to keep. Dry sub, water dish, excellent ventilation and good vertical wood cover with lots of anchor points to make creating web mats/tubes as easy as possible. Weekly I moisten a small area and let it dry back out for a while and made sure I had superior airflow. I'm convinced that if more people got info from reliable sources and ignored caresheets across the board with this genus, there would be no "sudden avic death syndrome".

 

[dredrickt]

Problem with avics, as I see it, is that it seems that most new avic buyers go on and on reading care sheets (and seek help in places like this only after there is a problem), these caresheets always stress humidity (and temp) to the point of paranoia, yet almost none of them I have ever read, say anything about the importance of ventilation or anchor points. All these people spend un-needed cash buying misters, automatic misters, heaters and worthless hygrometers, which vastly over-complicate everything. This vast...I'll call it misinformation...is the reason why so many newbies have issues with avics and why so many suddenly go downhill and start another "my dead/dying avic" thread. These "caresheets" that are so popular only lead to a "self fulfilling prophecy" of avic difficulties.

I ignored caresheets and got my avic info from a variety of different people that actually had significant long term success (here on AB) and did what the caresheets warned me about (basically ignoring humidity) and have found them, even as small slings, to be extremely easy to keep. Dry sub, water dish, excellent ventilation and good vertical wood cover with lots of anchor points to make creating web mats/tubes as easy as possible. Weekly I moisten a small area and let it dry back out for a while and made sure I had superior airflow. I'm convinced that if more people got info from reliable sources and ignored caresheets across the board with this genus, there would be no "sudden avic death syndrome".

I used cross ventilation with mine (and my other 2), high humidity, and a high amount of air changes per hour, mine still didn't make it, and it was curled like it was dehydrated. The way I see it, either it was a weak sling and died, or it was dehydrated (despite my best efforts) and died- but either way, that would just prove my point of it being fragile. Thankfully, my versicolor ate its first meal this afternoon, that was a huge weight off of my shoulders, if I lost two in the same week- I don't even want to go there, lol.

 

[cold blood]

You chose to go with high humidity, I chose to ignore humidity altogether. If I feel they need water, a drop in the webbing bi-weekly does the trick nicely. Mine have been great eaters, even at 1/2", never even had to use pre-killed prey like I do with my little brachys.

Like ya said, you could have easily just had a pair that were destined to not make it, hopefully that was the case and your problems are behind you. I wish you best of luck in the future, it would suck to even have one die.

 

[BobGrill]

People really exaggerate how fragile they are.

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[dredrickt]

People really exaggerate how fragile they are.

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Do you have access to some scientific research that I don't? If so, please share.

 

[BobGrill]

Do you have access to some scientific research that I don't? If so, please share.

No I don't, but I gave a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why there are so many Avic fatalities among newbies. They get this idea in their head that they need lots of humidity and mist the hell out of the enclosure constantly, while at the same time not giving the spider enough airflow, which results in a moist stuffy cage, which is a death sentence for any Avic. So there you go.

 

[dredrickt]

No I don't, but I gave a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why there are so many Avic fatalities among newbies. They get this idea in their head that they need lots of humidity and mist the hell out of the enclosure constantly, while at the same time not giving the spider enough airflow, which results in a moist stuffy cage, which is a death sentence for any Avic. So there you go.

So you don't, and your explanation does not fit in with my experience recently, given my enclosures all have cross ventilation (and in this instance had 60-70% humidity), especially my arboreals. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your explanation is not the case for some or even many people's deaths. My entire point was how fragile they are, humidity point considered or not. But regardless, its a waste of time to go around in circles about this. So unless there is scientific evidence contrary to my conclusions about their fragility (which I would gladly accept), we should probably just agree to disagree here.

 

[Poec54]

So unless there is scientific evidence contrary to my conclusions about their fragility (which I would gladly accept), we should probably just agree to disagree here.

I think Avic slings are more fragile than the average 2nd instar sling, but after a few sheds, they're hardy. Biggest problem with that is people keeping them too moist, and they have a low tolerence for stuffy, stagnant air. But there can be a variety of other factors. Avics are pretty specific in their requirements, more than most. What works for my other arboreal slings, doesn't work for Avics. As far as 'scientific evidence' in this hobby, there's very little on behavior and care, so don't hold your breath waiting for it. For most things you get hobbyists observations.

 

[Shrike]

So you don't, and your explanation does not fit in with my experience recently, given my enclosures all have cross ventilation (and in this instance had 60-70% humidity), especially my arboreals. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your explanation is not the case for some or even many people's deaths. My entire point was how fragile they are, humidity point considered or not. But regardless, its a waste of time to go around in circles about this. So unless there is scientific evidence contrary to my conclusions about their fragility (which I would gladly accept), we should probably just agree to disagree here.

Are you asking for peer reviewed scientific articles? Your point of view on the matter is equally as anecdotal. With respect to this particular issue we're all just sharing our personal experiences so I don't think anybody can claim their opinions are backed by science.

 

[dredrickt]

Are you asking for peer reviewed scientific articles? Your point of view on the matter is equally as anecdotal. With respect to this particular issue we're all just sharing our personal experiences so I don't think anybody can claim their opinions are backed by science.

That's a fair assessment, my biggest problem was the dismissive tone stemming solely from an opinion, when that is all (for the most part that I am aware of) that is available.

 

[Storm76]

DKS and SADS are both acronymns for situations in which the keeper doesn't know what else it could be. The fact that neither of these two conditions have been scientifically backed up, is exactly the reason why so many of us refrain from using them and try to tell people new to the hobby -not- to take to them. Slings of the Avicularia genus are simply made out as fragile, because it's the most common starter arboreal tarantula. Hence, with so many new keepers getting them, there's bound to be mistakes and wrong care on some ends. Sadly, a lot of people drown them in humidity with no real airflow.

Some common sense:

In the wild, these tarantulas live up in the trees and almost never come down to the ground. Even with high ambient humidity (note the difference - humidity isn't equal to moisture - one is amount of water in the ambient air, the other is amount of water in the substrate/soil) and being a rainforest species, there is considerable air-flow up there and making that available to such an animal is vital for its survival. There's proof (in the from from multiple keepers, not scientifically backed up so far) that kept in the wrong conditions, they develop fungi in their booklungs which eventually kills them. Stagnant, humid enviroment is a breeding ground for that, so by using some common sense, you don't want that to happen.

While many may not agree to my approach, I have had considerable success with it and hardly ever lost an Avic sling while raising them. This video I made for all those that want to try it and see for themself if it helps them a while ago. Feel free to check it out:

[YOUTUBE]MB2wtjHi4UE[/YOUTUBE]

 

[timisimaginary]

My A. Braunshauseni curled up and died last night. I got to enjoy it for a whopping 1.5 days. Curled up like it was dehydrated despite probably 60-70% humidity. People who say the humidity thing is over exaggerated- I simply don't buy it. Avics ARE fragile, and now i have a dead one to prove it. Waste of $29.

if you only had it 1.5 days, then it's highly likely it was already sick or dying when you got it. maybe the previous keeper/breeder wasn't keeping it properly. maybe it became highly stressed during shipping, if it was shipped. one sling dying shortly after arrival isn't proof that it is a fragile species. if that were true, then EVERY species ever sold would be considered fragile.

A widespread amount of deaths throughout the hobby isn't proof enough they are fragile? You can't be serious... And obviously it isn't a scientific label, its a common slang reference for unexplained deaths that so many people experienced, it brought about its own acknowledgement. Unless everyone made the deaths up and the slang reference is just a massive conspiracy...

at one time or another, most exotic species experienced high death rates in captivity. that's not necessarily a reflection of fragility, so much as a reflection of the fact that people have yet to learn the correct husbandry for that species. fragility would be a species that, even when kept in ideal conditions, still experiences a high rate of die-off.

 

[Ilovepredators]

I keep my 9 avicularia slings in the same containers as people usually breed fruitflys in. I have no problems I keeps them from escaping but seems to provide adequate ventalation. Then I use vermiculite as substrate and fill water in just below the top of the vermiculite that way the slings not standing in water but their is plenty of humidity and ventalation and they all molt fine and don't drown.

 

[dredrickt]

if you only had it 1.5 days, then it's highly likely it was already sick or dying when you got it. maybe the previous keeper/breeder wasn't keeping it properly. maybe it became highly stressed during shipping, if it was shipped. one sling dying shortly after arrival isn't proof that it is a fragile species. if that were true, then EVERY species ever sold would be considered fragile.

at one time or another, most exotic species experienced high death rates in captivity. that's not necessarily a reflection of fragility, so much as a reflection of the fact that people have yet to learn the correct husbandry for that species. fragility would be a species that, even when kept in ideal conditions, still experiences a high rate of die-off.

Shipping was probably the deciding factor with mine. I'm over it now, so I'll stop being combative about it, lol. Truth be told, I was pretty pissed off because I take a great amount of pride in my collection and how they are kept, and to lose one that I felt I had no control over was extremely aggravating. That was the first death for me, and I've had T's for about 11 years, I'm sure I'll handle the next one much better.