Artificial Diet for Centipedes

[Nanotrev]

I've gotten my centipedes to eat an artificial diet, and now I'm working on refining the contents to help them get the best nutrition possible. In this regard, I'm using select ingredients that I think will help them obtain a larger size even faster than they normally would. Thus far the few I've tested it on have been doing very well with higher activity levels than those not eating the diet. Nothing else seems out of the norm for them so I guess I'll have to wait for a while and sit back to see what happens. I thought I'd post this here to get opinions.

 

[dehaani]

This is really interesting, what sort of ingredients are you using?

 

[Travis K]

Higher activity levels could be a result of them being hungry for real food.

 

[Nanotrev]

Higher activity levels could be a result of them being hungry for real food.

Unlikely. The third animal on the diet has hardly shown any activity at all after eating, though the other two are more active in general yet it's not the typical behavior I see when they're hunting. It's more of a meandering around and sitting out in the open at night. I suppose I can't really draw a conclusion at this point until after they've been on the diet for a while longer but it is very high in protein and fat. I also mixed in an amount of reptile vitamins and minerals, excluding the calcium and D3. While I've been asked not to share one of the ingredients because the individual feels it's a real breakthrough I feel people at least deserve a little hint.

While I was doing research on just what sort of nutrients terrestrial arthropods go for I found that quite a few terrestrial arachnids and a few arboreal insects feed on something that would seemingly disqualify them as being strictly carnivorous. In studies done in laboratories the specimens fed this component had a higher reproductive rate let alone improved growth.

If I have success with this diet over the next year or so, I'll begin refining it so I have precise measurements so that it's able to be replicated and used by the rest of the community. Tomorrow night will be the first night that I make a new batch and take notes on how much of what I'm using, though I've made sure there are certain ratios.

 

[zonbonzovi]

Not to rain on your parade but why can't this be achieved with well fed feeders? Size is an attribute that is genetically controlled & faster growth means shorter life span. That said, I'm still interested to see what it is your feeding and why you think it will contribute to faster growth rates.

 

[KingBaboon85]

I would have to agree with Zonbonzovi... I prefer to create a artificial diet for feeders....I have once had three females on raw meat and also ground beef without hesitation they would take it... But I don't do that anymore .... Just to accelerate the egg producing process quicker.... Lost 2 females third one a success ... But with centipedes I'll stick to upgrading the feeder food.... But I'm still curious in what you came up with

 

[Nanotrev]

To put it this way, there are two reasons I would like to see how they do with an artificial diet.

One, being that I was trying to talk someone I know into trying them. Their biggest deal was that they ate live food after they got over all the legs and the maxillipeds. They just couldn't deal with the chirping crickets yet they didn't want to go to the pet store all the time. They had even more reasons than this but those and what's listed here could have been solved via an artificial diet. Because I've mentioned this to them, they've taken great interest in hearing how this goes.

Two, because I feel I would be able to get the nutrients directly to the centipede and if I were able to feed an artificial diet beginning at the post-nymph stage I could potentially keep that centipede parasite free. What else could be accomplished with an artificial diet? While it could indeed be accomplished with prekilled feeders, it would achieve the same result as not having a cricket or roach to bite at or annoy your centipede while unattended. It would also take away having to raise the crickets. If there was a food proven to be on par with or superior to crickets, wouldn't you buy it in bulk and store it instead of raising crickets?

I have no issues with feeding live or raising my centipede food but I feel it would be tremendous to study them as they are reared on this diet from a young age at take note on the results. There's a lot of promise in this for me let alone the rest of us if it works.

---------- Post added 11-08-2012 at 03:06 PM ----------

Not to rain on your parade but why can't this be achieved with well fed feeders? Size is an attribute that is genetically controlled & faster growth means shorter life span. That said, I'm still interested to see what it is your feeding and why you think it will contribute to faster growth rates.

The critters in question weren't mentioned to have grown faster, but had a slightly larger than average size at adulthood suggesting that their genetics supported a larger size but that they were unable to achieve that maximum potential because of the lack of a complete diet available to them.

EDIT-

To further this, I will have two breeding pairs of centipedes. One pair will be fed the diet I'm working on and the other will be fed gut-loaded insects. Hopefully, I can obtain a third pair which will use insects gut-loaded with the diet to be used on the centipedes.

 

[zonbonzovi]

I'm sure you've seen older threads on feeding bacon, sausage, chicken, bananas, etc. so I won't rehash that here. I'm sincerely interested in what you are feeding and if there is anything they particularly reject or relish, unless that is proprietary

 

[Nanotrev]

I'm sure you've seen older threads on feeding bacon, sausage, chicken, bananas, etc. so I won't rehash that here. I'm sincerely interested in what you are feeding and if there is anything they particularly reject or relish, unless that is proprietary

Well, what I CAN tell you without stepping on anyone's toes is that I fed them two brands of carnivore food for the initial tests to see if they would take an artificial diet at all. It's a tad bit useless to have something made for them with a ton of effort. One brand had corn in it, and the other brand did not. I went forth to test it and they really liked the one with the corn meal mixed in. I then saw that it had corn and grains and almost fainted. How could I possibly be so dumb?! Centipedes don't eat corn. I switched to the premium diet of another brand. It had no corn or grain, with significantly more protein and fat mixed in. They hated it. It took the centipedes significantly longer to become anywhere close to interested in what was presented to them. Most ate it, yes, but they didn't eat anywhere near as much or as vigorously as they had before. The first test, in comparison was much more successful. The blue ring-leg (out of the three I have now) was the first to try it. She immediately took the food and ate until the entire pellet was gone. I'm now probing deeper into which ingredients are used in both brands and how they effect arthropods.

Something to include about one of the ingredients. Niacin.

"Deletion of niacin from an artificial diet developed for the Mediterranean fruit fly, Ceratitis capitata (Wiedemann), resulted in high larval mortality, reduced pupation, longer time to pupation, and low adult emergence."

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/esa/jee/1986/00000079/00000003/art00003

One would be led to believe that it would be beneficial to include this in their diet, and that it would lead to better results when we take care of our animals. In all irony, when we take increased doses of niacin we are more prone to our body having a bad reaction to an arthropod bite.

 

[dactylus]

Very interesting thread Nanotrev. Please keep us posted on your trials.

For an artificial diet to be competitive with raising live feeder insects the cost would have to somewhat comparable. Would I pay a little bit more for an artificial diet that would let me completely avoid having bins of feeder crickets and roaches in my home? Absolutely!!

Not to go off topic but have you offered this diet to any tarantula species? Every spider that I've ever kept that I can think of would not hesitate to revert from predator to scavenger mode and accept pre-killed food items. I think that is probably true of most "predator species" in the wild. To be able to feed my centipedes & spiders a beneficial, cost effective, artificial diet, free from deleterious side effects would be fantastic.

David

 

[Greenjewls]

One of my centipedes had a bad molt, and because its antennae and mouthparts got jacked up, it has been less keen on eating crickets. While it eats pre-killed freshly molted crickets willingly enough, I really need to fortify it's diet with artificials as much as possible if I want it to survive to the next molt and hopefully fully repair itself. One food that it goes for immediately is fried eggs. I hope they contain niacin because it eats more egg than anything else right now. I wish anyone would divulge more nutrient rich and easily "nom"ed foods for centipedes on this thread so I can potentially save this one's life.

 

[Nanotrev]

Very interesting thread Nanotrev. Please keep us posted on your trials.

For an artificial diet to be competitive with raising live feeder insects the cost would have to somewhat comparable. Would I pay a little bit more for an artificial diet that would let me completely avoid having bins of feeder crickets and roaches in my home? Absolutely!!

Not to go off topic but have you offered this diet to any tarantula species? Every spider that I've ever kept that I can think of would not hesitate to revert from predator to scavenger mode and accept pre-killed food items. I think that is probably true of most "predator species" in the wild. To be able to feed my centipedes & spiders a beneficial, cost effective, artificial diet, free from deleterious side effects would be fantastic.

David

They would likely eat it, yes. Right now I'm going to order some better food in from another website, along with more of the other ingredients. I'm studying the ingredient labels on multiple pet foods and deciding how I will get the things I want, and how I will combine them to achieve the desired results. As soon as I complete my research, testing, and work I will offer zip-lock bags with the samples. This could take close to a year because I would like it to be safe for my own animals before offering it to anyone else. Do I think it could be harmful? No, but it pays to be safe rather than very sorry and very unpopular with people who had their hopes high for what I was producing only to be let down. I may move in the future if it proves to be a big hit so that I can produce my own ingredients and thus cut down on cost.

---------- Post added 11-09-2012 at 10:22 PM ----------

One of my centipedes had a bad molt, and because its antennae and mouthparts got jacked up, it has been less keen on eating crickets. While it eats pre-killed freshly molted crickets willingly enough, I really need to fortify it's diet with artificials as much as possible if I want it to survive to the next molt and hopefully fully repair itself. One food that it goes for immediately is fried eggs. I hope they contain niacin because it eats more egg than anything else right now. I wish anyone would divulge more nutrient rich and easily "nom"ed foods for centipedes on this thread so I can potentially save this one's life.

If you like, I can send you something for your pede to get by on for now though I do not know how it will perform in the long-term. I'm still waiting on what I need before I ship it to you but it's very high-quality. Just send me a PM with an address you want it shipped to and I'll work on something for you.

 

[SDCPs]

I agree with you, Nanotrev, the requirement of live food is one of the reasons I'm just not very interested in centipedes. An artificial dog food like form would be excellent.

Best wishes!

 

[Nanotrev]

Right now I'm exploring what effect copper chloride and copper sulfate might have on giant centipedes. They ARE used in aquarium parasitic treatments which can destroy entire populations of hermit crabs and whichever other invertebrates inhabit the tank. This was my main concern so I decided to delve into the topic and research what impact it would have on creatures like those we keep as pets in these threads.

ABSTRACT

Copper-based fungicides reliably control various foliar diseases in citrus production, although they are suspected to exacerbate mite problems through various mechanisms. Studies have shown negative effects of various copper formulations on entomopathogenic fungi, nematodes, and parasitoids, but few have sought to measure its impact on the biology of predatory insects. We exposed the larvae of three species of ladybeetle (Coleoptera: Coccinellidae) to field rates of copper sulfate in combination with petroleum oil, a formulation commonly applied in Florida citrus. First instar larvae of Curinus coeruleus Mulsant, Harmonia axyridis Pallas, and Olla v-nigrum Mulsant received a 24 h exposure to residues on Petri dishes, and another 24 h exposure in the third instar. Treated larvae of all three species survived to adulthood at the same rate as control larvae, but larvae of O. v-nigrum experienced a significant increase in developmental time. Female adults of C. coeruleus and H. axyridis receiving copper sulfate exposures as larvae did not differ from control adults in pre-reproductive period, fecundity or fertility over ten days of reproduction. Treated O. v-nigrum females had significantly longer pre-reproductive periods than control females and laid significantly fewer eggs, although egg fertility was equivalent. We conclude that copper-sulfate fungicides are unlikely to disrupt biological control processes in citrus groves that are mediated by these coccinellid beetles.

Obviously, in pet foods these will occur in much smaller amounts but they are still undesirable. I've found several brands that do not use copper-sulfate. I thought this was significant to share because I decided to avoid it in my selection and it has proven a most desirable choice on my part. Should anyone else try and feed pet foods to their feeders I would look at the ingredients and avoid any foods that involve the use of copper-sulfate because as we know, things become more concentrated as they go up the food chain and it wouldn't be very good to have this being fed to crickets or roaches. While copper-sulfate isn't all too toxic (when not used alone and in the correct amounts) and doesn't have that great of impact we'd still like to maximize the offspring our breeding female centipedes are able to produce.

Edit-
Copper chloride seemed to have little effect, and on that note large predatory arthropods DO require a small amount of copper in their diets as it is used in their respiration.

---------- Post added 11-10-2012 at 02:36 AM ----------

I agree with you, Nanotrev, the requirement of live food is one of the reasons I'm just not very interested in centipedes. An artificial dog food like form would be excellent.

Best wishes!

Thank you! As I do more research to clarify my understanding on each of the chemicals in today's pet food I come closer and closer to being able to be confident that it will be safe for what I'm making to be produced and given to the general public to try. Right now, I can say I've strongly considered using powdered food in my diet. My goal is to create a food that can be stored for a long amount of time while providing ideal nutrition for a centipede despite being in storage for prolonged periods. People could buy it in bulk and never use live feeders again if they chose to do so. I don't really have a high confidence in wet foods because they have a potential to become moldy and I doubt people would want to fill their fridges with it.

 

[Nanotrev]

Something else I thought I should mention.

I'm having my pal down there in Costa Rica ask his new professors (he transferred to another college) about S. gigantea. I specifically asked him if he would please look for someone who can readily identify them and collect them. Hopefully I'll be able to get in touch with someone who frequently visits the US so that way I can get them delivered through something like UPS or FedEx.

 

[SDCPs]

I agree again, it should be powdered or pelleted. My millipedes love to eat shrimp pellets which I give them once in a while, but their mouth parts are probably different. I would think a centi would be able to eat powder or pellets though.

 

[dactylus]

I agree again, it should be powdered or pelleted. My millipedes love to eat shrimp pellets which I give them once in a while, but their mouth parts are probably different. I would think a centi would be able to eat powder or pellets though.

I think that Nanotrev was probably planning on mixing the "powdered or pelleted diet" with water or some other liquid to produce the final product. The powdered or pelleted diet would not be used in that form for feeding the centipedes. That is what I think that he has in mind.

 

[Nanotrev]

Something worth noting is that they seem to prefer their food to be very slightly liquid. I think a better way to describe it would be that they like something solid to eat but it needs to be fairly soft. On the other end of the spectrum they really dislike soupy food or food that is simply runny when you pour it out. After eating it they wipe their heads all over the substrate at times. Too solid and they won't show any interest except for a quick "sniff" with a wave of their antennae to confirm they've passed by something that might be food but doesn't meet their criteria. When it's just right they'll eat it until they're full.

One of the centipedes trying the diet is in pre-molt which makes me think I should mention that I also selected foods that were low in calcium as to help with this process.

 

[Nanotrev]

Something I need to stress.

You can not use foods with grain in it because some grains are grown with the use of insecticides and while they may not harm dogs or cats you might wipe out a roach colony or your predator inverts with it over time.

While not all people have the same experience in the use of meaty pet foods with grain in it I'm taking no risks here.

My apologies for the amount of time it took me to make the rest of this post. It appears that none of the dehaani will eat this diet. They won't even try it. The ring-legs on the other hand can't seem to get enough of it, which leads me to believe that the centipedes that don't like it would appreciate a higher meat content in the mix meaning I might have to make one just for them and another for other centipedes that will take the diet. I'll edit this post when I try it on both of the S. heros.

I removed the ingredient I was told to keep between myself and the person who thinks it is too ingenious of an idea to let people know about. All I did to replace it was toss in the reptile mineral / vitamin powder when I blended three cups of cat food. Almost right away, all three of the S. heros took to eating it and now I'm about to try my luck with the S. dehaani specimens. The only S. heros that seemed to accept the specialized blend was one of the two blotched specimens though I can't be sure because he's cleaning his maxillipeds as if he's recently eaten.

One S. heros eats the specialized blend. I will leave it in with the second overnight while the third enjoys its cat food.

Another update. The S. dehaani "Tiger-Leg" female is eating the specialized blend. It seems it merely takes time for them to settle down before they accept it. The males went over it quite a few times but still haven't tried it.

 

[Nanotrev]

Okie dokie. Now that I've had a good night's sleep and I'm not a zombie at the keyboard I feel confident in writing out the steps I've gone through thus far.

1. I went through all sorts of carnivorous animal diets.

Being that I work at a pet store, the bags don't have reviews on them. I'd write their names down and look up their ingredients online. When I did this, I also looked for other pet foods online- going through each of their reviews as well. The initial runner-up was ferret food. It still might be. If I remember correctly there were pellets with 60% protein and 20% fat. When I looked at the reviews I would find some fairly unsavory things about a few brands and then sail on over to the next. The "Instinct" cat food really seems to be the best bet for me so far though I'm going to try and figure out how else I can modify it.

2. I looked up every ingredient.

I'm not too worried about the bacterial starters in the cat food or the ferret food, but when I saw copper I immediately dumped one of my batches and became much more strict in how many ingredients I looked at. I decided I would find out what copper protienate was and what effects copper sulfate had in low amounts on large terrestrial arthropod predators. I found that the first was actually needed in their diet and the second didn't have too terrible of effects on them. It messed with their reproductive potency a bit, and they grew a little faster. They'd only ever eaten it once so I just pulled that brand out of my bag of possibilities and moved on. During this research was when I also found out about the grains. I had already decided to stick to a grain-free brand and was happier for it after having found out what I did. (see above post with centipede picture)

3. I put everything into a blender!

I'll go through what I used in a short bit here, but I found out that no matter how long I soaked the pellets they never became as soft as I wanted them too without just falling apart. I decided I was going to need to blend it all into a fine powder (you guys were indeed correct) before feeding it to the centipedes. Even before that I would spray it with distilled water, kneading the powder with the water until it had the consistency of a clay ball. After having done such I'd toss it to the centipedes and they would munch away on it.

...yet what did I use?

I'm really hesitant to say because I won't want a dozen people testing this out before my trial period is done. Bad things could still pop up and cause me to have to change my plans. Do I think they will? No, but as I said before I think it's best for me to be cautious before I run out with a huge sign in my hands screaming how successful I was.

The foods I've messed with however, have always been comprised mainly of protein and I've almost picked out the premium brands... and further more those without any grain in them. Despite how generic it sounds for me to be using I think cat food is actually pretty complete and I think it's a pretty good alternative for those centipedes that will eat it. Most people I've talked to don't even gut-load their prey items to begin with. It's like zonbonzovi said, with most people just throwing a chunk of fruit in and walking off while their roaches or crickets dig in. If we feed our prey insects bananas, or just apples.. it ends up with the nutrients the apple or the banana provides passing directly to our centipedes. How good is the variety in that? Think about how much of a menu their vast array of prey items have in the wild have. Look at what WE eat every day. I don't think throwing in a few select fruits and vegetables is going to cut it.

Now, my diet isn't perfect either and my end-all plan is to eventually ditch all over brand foods and produce my own, with my own materials. It's something that takes a LOT of money so this will likely be years down the road and possibly even as I'm going to school for these bugs. I hope to find someone with the resources to do this sort of thing who wouldn't mind sharing for a day or so out of the week while giving me feedback on how to do things.