Anyone had experience with 100% coco coir for millipedes?

[Godzilla90fan]

I've seen mixed reviews on peoples results from this on reddit, but I've had several generations of american giants (and more recently added 3 bumblebees) thrive in 100% coco coir substrate, and 100% supplemented food (they obviously eat SOME substrate, but the vast majority of their food is mushrooms and wood bits). I've yet to find a dead millipede in this tank, and when I do I'm sure it will be my oldest, MASSIVE male, of old age.

The biggest reason I see people go against it, is they seem to believe eating pure coco coir substrate can cause it to enlarge in their stomachs, leading to compaction and death. I feel that is only a risk if humidity isn't kept ideal, but maybe I've just been lucky. Any thoughts? Preferably from people whom have actually tried it, or know of documentation about someone whom did.

Had one guy viciously berate me on reddit, accusing me of "abusing" my millipedes by doing this. Its been years, they're fine. But I am open to discourse.

 

[Arthroverts]

Can you please explain what you mean by supplemental foods? How many generations have gone through a complete life cycle in this fashion?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[Joey Spijkers]

I’ve used coco fiber as the bulk of my substrate for many years, but with a lot of wood and leaf litter mixed in there.
I’m sure they will eat fruits and vegetables, but in my opinion, dead leaves and wood should be the biggest part of the diet. I haven’t noticed issues with using coco fiber though. I also think the impaction story is related to other factors.
I keep Spirostreptus sp. 1 ‘Tanzania’, and my experience with other species is limited, so I can’t say this works for all species.

 

[Godzilla90fan]

Can you please explain what you mean by supplemental foods? How many generations have gone through a complete life cycle in this fashion?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

I give them portobello mushrooms, bark from a pet store in various rot, carrots, and the occasional lettuce or cucumber (rare, it's almost all water). I keep a large portobello in at ALL times. My 3rd lifecycle has just started (as in I've spotted my first pedelings this cycle). I release most babies, but I won't with these because I've introduced a non native species. I normally wouldn't release them anyway, but the population here is quite low since we've urbanized the city more.

 

[Godzilla90fan]

I’ve used coco fiber as the bulk of my substrate for many years, but with a lot of wood and leaf litter mixed in there.
I’m sure they will eat fruits and vegetables, but in my opinion, dead leaves and wood should be the biggest part of the diet. I haven’t noticed issues with using coco fiber though. I also think the impaction story is related to other factors.
I keep Spirostreptus sp. 1 ‘Tanzania’, and my experience with other species is limited, so I can’t say this works for all species.

Most of my experience is with American giants, but my bumblebees are doing great.
Oddly enough, first weird situation today. A millipede is molting above ground, under a large bark piece. At first I was upset, thought she was dead (being a bit pale) and went to remove her. She quickly and powerfully spasmed, so shes not dead, but now I'm worried I hurt her. Shes my 3rd oldest, about 2 years almost

 

[goliathusdavid]

The primary issue with using only coco coir is that most common brands (such as EcoEarth) are relatively acidic. While coco coir's pH levels aren't significant enough to mess with any vertebrates you might keep on it, or arachnids, for decomposers which depend on nutritious soil it can easily become problematic. I will admit I tend to use fairly high percentage coir substrates, but ALWAYS with some amount of decaying leaves, calcium, hardwood, and/or oak flake soil. Usually about a 50/50 ratio of coir to decaying stuff for me, at least before I became a sucker for buying the much better stuff other people make to save myself time

 

[Godzilla90fan]

The primary issue with using only coco coir is that most common brands (such as EcoEarth) are relatively acidic. While coco coir's pH levels aren't significant enough to mess with any vertebrates you might keep on it, or arachnids, for decomposers which depend on nutritious soil it can easily become problematic. I will admit I tend to use fairly high percentage coir substrates, but ALWAYS with some amount of decaying leaves, calcium, hardwood, and/or oak flake soil. Usually about a 50/50 ratio of coir to decaying stuff for me, at least before I became a sucker for buying the much better stuff other people make to save myself time

Never thought of it from an acidity standpoint. It's almost time for a substrate clean out, I may attempt something more mainstream. Gonna give time for more eggs to hatch first.. I just worry the difference in substrate will stress the older ones.

 

[goliathusdavid]

Never thought of it from an acidity standpoint. It's almost time for a substrate clean out, I may attempt something more mainstream. Gonna give time for more eggs to hatch first.. I just worry the difference in substrate will stress the older ones.

Honestly, the greatest issue with substrate changes is just getting babies, and making sure to throw nothing away (assume EVERYTHING has eggs because with most species it probably does). Provided you keep handling to a minimum more or less, and avoid disturbing any molting individuals, you should not stress anyone unduly. I think the organism most stressed out by substrate changes is the keeper, at least in my case

 

[Joey Spijkers]

You could always store the old substrate in a different tub for a few months, and remove any pedelings you find in there.

 

[Godzilla90fan]

Honestly, the greatest issue with substrate changes is just getting babies, and making sure to throw nothing away (assume EVERYTHING has eggs because with most species it probably does). Provided you keep handling to a minimum more or less, and avoid disturbing any molting individuals, you should not stress anyone unduly. I think the organism most stressed out by substrate changes is the keeper, at least in my case

I think I may need to. One of my bumblebees is dead this morning, and another lethargic, only moving its legs. My american giants seem fine..its making me wonder if the mites from the giants are harming my bumblebees. Hate to lose them Guess I should separate them

 

[Dry Desert]

I think I may need to. One of my bumblebees is dead this morning, and another lethargic, only moving its legs. My american giants seem fine..its making me wonder if the mites from the giants are harming my bumblebees. Hate to lose them Guess I should separate them

If you're on your third generation there can't be much wrong as long as you provide leaf and white wood also.
Looking at your list of supplement foods it's probably the reason your mites have bloomed.
I've covered that in my reply to your other post.

 

[PillipedeBreeder]

Hello,
in addition to what goliathusdavid said, coco earth often has a high salt content as well, which is part of the coco fiber problematic too.
There are even coco fiber products with reduced salt content, though those probably weren’t made for millipedes anyways.
I also wanna add, you should always try to give your millipedes the best nutrition and substrate and coco fiber is definitely the wrong base for that.
(That’s definitely not as much of a concern for hardy and easy species as it is for more advanced species.)

Best Regards,
PillipedeBreeder

 

[Godzilla90fan]

Hello,
in addition to what goliathusdavid said, coco earth often has a high salt content as well, which is part of the coco fiber problematic too.
There are even coco fiber products with reduced salt content, though those probably weren’t made for millipedes anyways.
I also wanna add, you should always try to give your millipedes the best nutrition and substrate and coco fiber is definitely the wrong base for that.
(That’s definitely not as much of a concern for hardy and easy species as it is for more advanced species.)

Best Regards,
PillipedeBreeder

Any recommendations for substrate that I can buy in person, such as at tractor supply, lowes or walmart?
My giants seem pretty hardy, I've noticed polydesmids in general aren't as much so. I have 2 sigmoria aberrans (black and yellow variety), one adult female and a pedeling I found, that have been doing well for about 4 months. Both have been underground for almost a month (I checked a few days ago to see if they are alive, they are, and were very lively when disturbed, so not molting, odd). I had a male for a long time as well at one point, though it died shortly after mating with the female, which was sad. I still have a lot of footage of him. I think he may have gotten sick, or the species may die after mating, not sure. I also have a decent population of garden millipedes that live in an enclosure with some snails, but they also are pretty frail (they breed, but don't live long it seems).

 

[PillipedeBreeder]

Hello,
more or less, traeger oak/hickory/other hardwood pellets and ferment them to FlakeSoil. No recommendations for anything you can directly buy unfortunately.

Best regards,
PillipedeBreeder

 

[Mastigoproctus]

I'm not gonna read through all the comments, Coco can work with a number of species of millipede as they can brake it down and safely digest it for the most part. Now obviously you need to add decaying wood and leaf litter for it to be of any nutritional value.

HOWEVER, keep in mind species like Orthoporus ornatus will die prematurely and never breed in Cocofiber substrate. They need 100% sand kept very dry but burrowable and a very special native diet left sectioned off or at surface leve to breed consistently and stay alive for the many, many years they should. That's why you never see captive breed O. ornatus, to my knowledge I'm one of very few people to have ever CBd them and maybe the only person to have captive bred Slate millipedes, which slates need 80% rough gravel substrate and 10% sand, they have a super particular diet and need only native plants to breed plus a special native rock lichen that makes up most of their diet, without it they die fast.

 

[Arthroverts]

I'm not gonna read through all the comments, Coco can work with a number of species of millipede as they can brake it down and safely digest it for the most part. Now obviously you need to add decaying wood and leaf litter for it to be of any nutritional value.

HOWEVER, keep in mind species like Orthoporus ornatus will die prematurely and never breed in Cocofiber substrate. They need 100% sand kept very dry but burrowable and a very special native diet left sectioned off or at surface leve to breed consistently and stay alive for the many, many years they should. That's why you never see captive breed O. ornatus, to my knowledge I'm one of very few people to have ever CBd them and maybe the only person to have captive bred Slate millipedes, which slates need 80% rough gravel substrate and 10% sand, they have a super particular diet and need only native plants to breed plus a special native rock lichen that makes up most of their diet, without it they die fast.

Any photos of the Orthoporus babies?

By slate millipedes do you mean Comanchelus?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[Mastigoproctus]

Any photos of the Orthoporus babies?

By slate millipedes do you mean Comanchelus?

Thanks,

Arthroverts

I have videos on my YouTube showing color cross babies I produced with Texas gold's and NM browns. There should also be old forums if you look at my content of posted on here of both. And yes Comanchelus, they are both native to me in Cuervo NM and Albuquerque so outdoor enclosures with native plants makes if very easy for me to breed them here.

 

[Dry Desert]

I have videos on my YouTube showing color cross babies I produced with Texas gold's and NM browns. There should also be old forums if you look at my content of posted on here of both. And yes Comanchelus, they are both native to me in Cuervo NM and Albuquerque so outdoor enclosures with native plants makes if very easy for me to breed them here.

Why have you cross bred your Millipedes?

 

[Mastigoproctus]

Why have you cross bred your Millipedes?

They where kept in the same outdoor enclose with the assumption it wouldn't happen as no one had bred them at that point, it wasn't intentional it just happened.

 

[mickiem]

They where kept in the same outdoor enclose with the assumption it wouldn't happen as no one had bred them at that point, it wasn't intentional it just happened.

I hadn't heard you had bred them. I tried a few times; gave it a few years and started with 30+ pedes, 12"+ deep and native plants and rocks. I followed AZ weather. Now to hear of you success, I want to try again! I didn't use 100% sand but I did use 100% local soil.