Anyone breeding white widows?

[spydrhunter1]

We've been having trouble getting them to mate...thought I'd try chilling them like other widows. What are the low temps that are experienced in their natural areas? Sound like you have some good information.

 

[buthus]

http://www.floridasmart.com/local/counties/martin/weather.htm

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mlb/surveys/012403/flurries.html

For a specie like bishopi, we may find that it has more to do with periods significant nightly temperature drops. Though I personally have never observed bishopi in the wild, I suspect that like other latros, they tend not to be active during the day. With an average low (Dec/Jan/Feb) in the mid to low 50s, for a few months, nightfall becomes slow-time for these spiders. "Brumation"? ...no, but definitely periods of reduced metabolism, which surely adds to the complexity of this species biological functions. Growth, lifespan and reproduction are the biggies that should be observable if enough test subjects are kept with the bud lights for for a month or so.

The 1st timing test Id run with bishopi... I'd go for a "late summer" hatch by cooling down a brood of 3rd -5th instar slings for 4 to 5 weeks with 2 warm-ups/feeds. If I need to or plan to pair siblings, I'd keep some males in the cooldown for a couple more weeks while the females enjoy a warm spring and 2 or 3 healthy meals. This should allow for "early summer" mating and some sac production (hopefully fairly heavy) then I'd place them into an early "fall' ...for more downtime.
Hopeful outcomes?
Longer living widows, larger adults, two maybe three periods of sac production and possibly more observable natural behavior normally missed when specimens are kept at constant "bug room" temps.

 

[lhystrix]

We've been having trouble getting them to mate...thought I'd try chilling them like other widows. What are the low temps that are experienced in their natural areas? Sound like you have some good information.

Here are some general observations from 95 and 96 when I kept the species to current day natural habitat observations for what it's worth. Most of you widow keepers may be well aware of this, but maybe something of use here.

Although present all year in Palm Beach and Martin Counties, adults are most abundant during spring and summer months. The temp ranges from 80's to 90's with high humidity during the summer months, up to 100% in the afternoon due to daily thunderstorms (when everything is 'normal' as we have had a few 'dry' years) that last an average of 30 mins. Caring for them was easy for me because basically all I had to do was open the windows to provide adequate heat and humidity.

They are however also the most 'delicate' and specialized of the five NA species, hence their rarity and the fact they only thrive in scrub habitats and cannot adapt to other habitats, unlike geometricus, the German cockroaches of the widow world.

The temps Buthus linked definitely slow everything down, but are not essential for reproduction and seem to have no effect on size (from what I have seen in the wild), although death may result from below normal temperatures. The only time I noticed a major decline in local populations was after all the dry weather here during the past few years. After cool/cold nights on sunny day, bishopi can be observed 'basking' in their webs.

Web building takes place at night, and prey capture primarily during the day, as most of the late instar and adult prey consists of bees and wasps.

Bishopi females are generally short lived as adults when compared to mactans, hesperus, and variolus. I don't think I ever had an adult female that lived over a year. On the other hand, I have had adult female hesperus and mactans thrive for over two years.

Wild adult female bishopi generally produce two, sometimes three sacs, and die shortly after. Four fertile sacs was the most one of my captives produced.
Breeding was never an issue unless the female was already fertile. As a result the male was perceived as prey instead of a mate. Spiderlings were released where the female was collected.

Adult and late instar females are arboreal, building their webs in plants and trees. The webs are designed for snaring flying insects, and the prey is primarily paper wasps, honeybees, and beetles in the Martin/Palm Beach areas.
The web is a horizontal 'cobweb' sheet, sometimes extending four feet from the retreat, with numerous snare/support lines extending up to two feet above the sheet that form a 'cobweb'. The webs vary in size depending on location. I kept them in enclosures that allowed them to build webs that could be easily be secured to the sides and top. Smooth surfaces are bad for all web building spiders that can't climb them (on the other hand, they're great for jumpers). The spider needs to be able to climb the sides and top of the enclosure so it can build a web. Sticking some branches, mesh, whatever in the enclosure is generally not sufficient for most Theridiids. It can create a stressful environment.

Webs are generally four feet above ground, although some are as high as twelve feet in tree branches. Bishopi move as fast as Agelenids when it comes to prey capture. Almost as soon as an insect flies into the web, the spider is on the sheet underneath. As the insect tries to get out of the snares, it usually falls to the sheet portion, sometimes with the help of the spider 'pulling' or 'shaking' the web to help prevent escape and 'steer' the prey towards the sheet.

Second and early instars are terrestrial. Their retreats are on the ground or close to it, in small holes in the sand, under debris such as leaves, bark, fallen tree branches, tree trunks, etc. Pretty interesting that they start off on the ground and wind up in the branches. A complete change in web structure, prey and microhabitat.

Here is an example of a protected habitat where bishopi occurs
http://www.floridastateparks.org/jo...visitors/JOD-BoardwalkandOverlook-RJWiley.jpg
at Jonathan Dickinson to give an idea of their natural environment.
http://www.floridastateparks.org/jonathandickinson/

 

[buthus]

The temps Buthus linked definitely slow everything down, but are not essential for reproduction and seem to have no effect on size (from what I have seen in the wild), although death may result from below normal temperatures.

If you're finding adults in the spring/early summer then those individuals experienced cool/cold temps either while developing in the sac, as slings or as juvs/subs. No way round it ...cool down periods are part of the life of most individual bishopi. The timing, ie..when they experience these temp extremes, most likely sets up the spiders "inner clock" affecting growth, reproduction etc.

Anyway...
Jeff, great info

 

[lhystrix]

If you're finding adults in the spring/early summer then those individuals experienced cool/cold temps either while developing in the sac, as slings or as juvs/subs. No way round it ...cool down periods are part of the life of most individual bishopi. The timing, ie..when they experience these temp extremes, most likely sets up the spiders "inner clock" affecting growth, reproduction etc.

Anyway...
Jeff, great info

Yes, they do experience cold weather, but I do not believe it affects the ultimate size of the spider, although you have an interesting point about reproduction and the 'inner clock'. I have bred and raised other FL spiders, and kept them at typical FL temps (warm), and they were no different than wild specimens when it came to size and reproduction. Of course, that may mean nothing at all as far as bishopi is concerned. I never bothered or cared to raise and breed them, so I don't know. It sounds like you have a good idea, though.

Adults are present all year, but in higher numbers during the warmer months.

BTW, great CA trapdoor setup. I'm shooting for a Jan Newport Beach visit and plan to do some trapdoor photography/collecting in Costa Mesa.

 

[spydrhunter1]

Sounds like I'll be doing some experimenting with the bishopi and cool temperatures. One of the girls laid a sac yesterday, but it was on the bottom of the cage this morning. I'm hoping that its fertile.

 

[What]

If she cut it out of the web it is about an 80% chance that is not fertile, sorry.

P.S. Jeff, I would love to hang out with you in the field when you come out here. Send me a PM or something....

 

[buthus]

but I do not believe it affects the ultimate size of the spider

Having closely observed my local hesperus population over the past 5 years or so, I can safely say that all the GIANTS I find are winter widows ..most likely last molt or last few molts occurred during colder periods.

I was actually tickled to read this...

11-29-2007, 12:31 AM
Improver
hi buthus,
many ppl. in Germany have problems with the size of cb L. hesperus - they don´t seem to grow very large here. Again that´s because they do not hibernate them

"Confirms" what i have been observing ...and happy to read it, because I dont usually trust what I think Im thinkin'. :?

I do know this ...broods from the giants I have raised produced 0 giants. Big, yes, but there is always a good number of biggy individuals ...but giants? ...I have a feeling that though genetics play a key role in the ability for an individual to survive during cold, scarce food supply periods, it is not the genes alone that produce huge hesps. Something triggers the trait and the most obvious, observable factor has been low temps.
During periods that drop down close to or past freezing, hesperus abandon their upper webbing and rebuild right next to and parallel to the ground. They also tend to abandon their usual preferred structure and hunting ground for low structure next to grasses, leaves, top soil, etc. Whats amazing is the giants tend to still go out in very cold temps and lay down webbing along the ground...sometimes expanding out several feet. They will attempt to snare prey well below 40F. I say "attempt" because the cold coagulates the web fluid and makes it too thick and clumsy to throw. Yet, they continue to try ..got to figure the one earwig they finally get, most likely means the difference between life and death for a cold and hungry widow.

Life expectancy.. You got to question why hesperus and variolus (which are the two N.A. species that experience the most temp fluctuation including the longest periods of low temps) are the longest living of the 4 native species. (?)
edit: I typed a rambling, but almost decent spew of what im ""thinking"" about regarding this subject.. too tired (and still need to bug chores ) to put a finish on the bullsht, so I cut it.
This is an interesting subject ...maybe it being ..Latrodectus: Environmental Requirements for Captive Breeding Multi-generational Lines. or something. 8+) has been quietly placing the subject on the table for a while now ...I bet theres a few posts on AB one could find that has him bringing up that really annoying "environmental factors ..PITA, (we dont wanna hear it as long as our spiders keep reproducing)"...stuff. :worship:
Anyway..
This is sorta becoming a bit of a threadjack imho.
If anyone is interested in starting such a thread, then they ought to. It could be a nice long lasting thread, because cold is a slow deal. The group of sub-adult boyz I have outside for the last couple weeks (just checked..its 42F) know what I'm saying.