Any snake keepers in here?

[VictoriaBR]

Hey,

I’m looking to chat with any snake owners that use the tap training method, or something similar to help them distinguish between food, and me NOT being food

I inherited my brothers corn snake about 7 years ago, and I think he’s around 12/14 years old.
I’m not what you’d call knowledgable when it comes to snakes in general, but I do know this snake very well and I know when somethings not right with him.
Until last night he’s NEVER shown any aggression or fear, and has never bitten anyone ever with me and whilst he was with my brother. He’s always been super chilled out, social and easy to handle. He’s also never really been very food orientated and usually very slowly and calmly sniffs his mouse, and gently starts to eat it.
About two months ago he’s started to strike out at his food and go crazy wrapping him and his mouse into a twisted noodle ball.
Last night I went into his tank to fill his water and spot clean like I always do every night, and for whatever reason he latched onto my hand with his teeth and stayed there for about 10 minutes just biting down and wrapping himself around my arm and hand.
Since then I’ve been racking my brain as to what and why it happened. Nothing about the routine was any different to normal.
I think it was more of a food response than him feeling threatened or moody. Like I said I’m not knowledgable on snake behaviour but the way I see it is if he was meaning to bite me and tell me off for something surely it would have been a quick strike bite and then him recoiling to the back of his tank?
But the fact it was a slow bite and then he hung onto me for a while maybe says he mistook my hand as food? I don’t know how because I always feed with tongs and around midday on feeding days, and when I’m handling him or doing tank maintenance and water changes I do them on an evening.
I always make sure he’s seen me before I actually put my hands inside the tank and that if he’s in his “bedtime cave” as I call it, I don’t disturb him if he’s in there as I want him to know that’s his safe place and he usually goes up to that cave as I’m doing nighttime checks and locking up etc. I like to keep a routine with my pets so they have some structure and absolutely nothing about last night was any different to how it normally is, but for some reason we got our wires crossed somewhere and he felt the need to try eat me or tell me off for something.
I’ve seen people use tap training with reptiles and big snakes, and wonder if this is something that might work for mine so this incident doesn’t get repeated.
What’s your thoughts on this if you have any?
Would a clicker work instead of a bang on his tank, or would he not hear it? I have a spider collection above his tank so I’m not keen on banging it and upsetting the spiders. Is there another method I could use?
Looking forward to anyone’s ideas or advice

 

[Scorpiobsession]

Can you add a picture of the enclosure? Snake bites aren't a big deal so if it's a one-time thing it's not something to worry about.

 

[Poonjab]

Check the temperature. Increased temps can illicit a higher food response. Does it also have day/night cycles? I watched my buddies corn snake for a month and it was the same way. I figured out pretty early on that it was heat and cycle issues. Homie had a basking light that ran on it 24/7

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Been keeping snakes for a couple decades, and don't know what 'tap training' is, but...

If you have a snake that associates entry into its enclosure with food, hooking the snake out is a good way to start to address the issue. It is decent protocol for any snake, actually. When it is out, hold it so it knows it is being held -- firmly and with two hands, at least at first.

Also, if a snake doesn't need to be tong fed, don't tong feed it. Snakes that pick prey off a plate are less likely to develop food-driven issues. Put the prey in the enclosure when the snake isn't paying attention (sleeping, or otherwise). This sounds 100% like a food confusion issue. I breed rosy boas; they're terrible about eating hands.

At that age, though, a sudden change suggests all is not right with the snake. A vet check (from a qualified exotics vet) cannot hurt.

 

[viper69]

I know tap training- there are some good videos on it.

something that requires regular daily use IME

 

[VictoriaBR]

Can you add a picture of the enclosure? Snake bites aren't a big deal so if it's a one-time thing it's not something to worry about.

He’s in the same enclosure he’s been in since upgrading it about 5 years ago because he outgrew his other one. He’s a big boy for a corn snake!
The heat bulb goes off at night and he has a heat mat on over night.
He has 4 different hides, one in each corner, including a humid hide as his sheads can be quite difficult unless the humidity is super high and he likes to sit in his water bowl if there’s no humid hide. He also gets super constipated if his tank isn’t humid enough.
I know you will think the tank is overkill and shouldn’t be decorated that way, but he’s a pet, not for breeding. I like to enjoy watching him in that environment and he also enjoys it.
Like I said this is the first time he’s done anything like this and absolutely nothing was changed with his routine or habitat. It was just another regular evening.

 

[VictoriaBR]

Check the temperature. Increased temps can illicit a higher food response. Does it also have day/night cycles? I watched my buddies corn snake for a month and it was the same way. I figured out pretty early on that it was heat and cycle issues. Homie had a basking light that ran on it 24/7

He has a heat bulb on during the day and a heat mat at night so he’s got his day/night cycles. It’s not too warm as I actually really struggle keeping it warm enough because my house is old and draughty. Plus everything’s hooked into a dimmer thermostat.

Someone else I spoke with said he could possibly be horny?

But this is the first time he’s done this and nothing about his routine or habitat are any different to what they’ve been for 5 plus years.

 

[VictoriaBR]

Been keeping snakes for a couple decades, and don't know what 'tap training' is, but...

If you have a snake that associates entry into its enclosure with food, hooking the snake out is a good way to start to address the issue. It is decent protocol for any snake, actually. When it is out, hold it so it knows it is being held -- firmly and with two hands, at least at first.

Also, if a snake doesn't need to be tong fed, don't tong feed it. Snakes that pick prey off a plate are less likely to develop food-driven issues. Put the prey in the enclosure when the snake isn't paying attention (sleeping, or otherwise). This sounds 100% like a food confusion issue. I breed rosy boas; they're terrible about eating hands.

At that age, though, a sudden change suggests all is not right with the snake. A vet check (from a qualified exotics vet) cannot hurt.

Sorry when I said tong feeding I meant I use tongs to put the mouse on a flat surface inside his tank. I don’t wiggle it round in front of him and encourage snake type behaviour. I’m too wimpy for that

The only time I announce my arrival with the intention of putting my hands inside his tank is when I’m going to handle him or change his water which is every night, and most of the time he will come out of his tank on his own before I pick him up or touch him.
The night in question I didn’t plan on handling him, I literally just went to change out his water.
I made sure he saw me before I started moving my hands towards his bowl and nothing about his behaviour seemed any different to normal.
Everything has been the same routine and habitat that he’s had for 5 plus years. It’s just the last couple months he’s started really striking at his mouse and throwing himself all over with it in his mouth.
Maybe it was just a one off, he’s back to normal since and to be honest even once he’s bitten me and let go, he carried on down my arm and out of his tank like he would if I were handling him normally. Was just a split second blip he had
Just wanted to make sure I hadn’t done something to upset him or that something else isn’t going on with him.
Someone did suggest he could be horny? Not sure at what age snakes mature and if they get a bit more aggressive during this time?

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Unlikely he would enter a breeding phase this time of the year, unless you had some really odd temp fluctuations over the summer that suggested winter. Also, males in breeding mode typically cruise the enclosure and refuse all food. Whoever you talked to is just parroting things that sound relevant, not making educated comments. Lots of that online.

Checking (that is, checking initially for a baseline and then monitoring as seasonal temp variations play out, and as behavior changes warrant) temps at the hot spot and the cool end gives lots of useful info; Poonjab is right on target with that thought. Can't keep snakes well without an IR temp gun, as the temp at the thermostat probe is not necessarily the temp that the snake's body attains.

 

[Scorpiobsession]

That enclosure looks awesome. I love it when keepers provide reptiles with enrichment and space. Based on everything said I think it was just a one-time mistake (likely feeding response). If you decide to hook/tap train research doing it for reticulated pythons. The process is pretty much the same and there is a lot more information out there.

 

[VictoriaBR]

That enclosure looks awesome. I love it when keepers provide reptiles with enrichment and space. Based on everything said I think it was just a one-time mistake (likely feeding response). If you decide to hook/tap train research doing it for reticulated pythons. The process is pretty much the same and there is a lot more information out there.

Oh thank you! I was expecting to get a roasting for having his tank that way. I joined a snake forum a few years ago when I had questions about constipated snakes and they practically laughed me out of the forum and tore pieces out of me for the way his tank is.
Yes I know he’s not a jungle snake, or arboreal, and that he can survive in a box with paper towels on the floor and a small hide. But he’s a pet and part of having pets is to enjoy seeing them and watch them interact with things. When he’s not sleeping he’s always burrowing tunnels in his substrate and uses the branches to move up and down between the two levels in his tank. He’s very inquisitive and nosey and he seems a pretty happy snake in my opinion.
I get why some people keep them in tray and racks when they have so many snakes to maintain or breed them, but he’s my only snake so I have the time for him and to keep up his tank maintenance. Nothing in there will physically harm him so why not give him a nice playground even if he is just a regular corn snake.
If he showed any signs of not being happy in there then I’d change it, but he seems like a happy snake. I think he thinks he’s an emerald tree boa that way he likes to be wrapped round the branches but I don’t want to dash his dreams by telling him he’s nothing special like that and is just a boring old corn snake

 

[VictoriaBR]

Unlikely he would enter a breeding phase this time of the year, unless you had some really odd temp fluctuations over the summer that suggested winter. Also, males in breeding mode typically cruise the enclosure and refuse all food. Whoever you talked to is just parroting things that sound relevant, not making educated comments. Lots of that online.

Checking (that is, checking initially for a baseline and then monitoring as seasonal temp variations play out, and as behavior changes warrant) temps at the hot spot and the cool end gives lots of useful info; Poonjab is right on target with that thought. Can't keep snakes well without an IR temp gun, as the temp at the thermostat probe is not necessarily the temp that the snake's body attains.

I have 3 digital thermometers in his tank to make sure it’s at suitable temps, one at either end and one in the middle, but I guess I could try an IR gun to be sure.

 

[Westicles]

I have 6 snakes, and only one I gently tap with a paper towel when I open her enclosure, if not she comes out with both barrels blazing. But, none of my other 5 have never had any odd behavior like that. Hopefully, its just an odd occurrence

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I have 3 digital thermometers in his tank to make sure it’s at suitable temps, one at either end and one in the middle, but I guess I could try an IR gun to be sure.

The reason I mentioned it is because when asked about temps, you replied by listing the heat sources, rather than actual temps. Was a bit of a red flag response (no offense intended), but if you think you have temps figured out, no problem.

Personally, I think the enclosure looks great (though I'm not convinced about red light all day, since snakes are very visual animals, but if it's working for you I guess it is working for you). I keep my snakes in pretty utilitarian enclosures, and often see people complicating their animals' enclosures in ways that do not benefit the animal ("bioactive", usually), but it is clear that you've provided some useful hardscape in there. From the snake's POV, that is much better than a spartan tub, and anyone who gives you a hard time about it doesn't know much about snakes.

Also, corn snakes are quite avid climbers in the wild; many academic studies classify them as 'semi arboreal'. Here's a study about birds specifically nesting in trees in ways that attempt to avoid predation by corn snakes:

Do Abandoned Woodpecker Cavities Provide Secondary Cavity Nesters Protection from Climbing Snakes?

The pine forests of the southeastern United States support a number of cavity-nesting birds as well as several species of rat snakes (Pantherophis spp.). Rat snakes are well-documented nest predators, and nest predation of some of the region's cavity nesters is higher than in other areas...

bioone.org

 

[Malum Argenteum]

And, not to spam this thread, but your evaluation of your snake as "regular" and "boring old" is off base. My personal favorite snake species is a colubrid (same family as your corn snake) -- Lampropeltis knoblochi -- because they're intelligent and calm and curious and trusting and drop dead gorgeous, five characteristics that don't exist together in any of the other species I keep. I suspect your corn snake has those qualities too.

Unfortunately, corn snakes suffered the tragedy of popularity (same as some other really cool reptiles like green iguanas and ball pythons did) and now people look down on them. Wrongly. I've not owned a corn, but they sound like excellent snakes.

 

[Westicles]

And, not to spam this thread, but your evaluation of your snake as "regular" and "boring old" is off base. My personal favorite snake species is a colubrid (same family as your corn snake) -- Lampropeltis knoblochi -- because they're intelligent and calm and curious and trusting and drop dead gorgeous, five characteristics that don't exist together in any of the other species I keep. I suspect your corn snake has those qualities too.

Unfortunately, corn snakes suffered the tragedy of popularity (same as some other really cool reptiles like green iguanas and ball pythons did) and now people look down on them. Wrongly. I've not owned a corn, but they sound like excellent snakes.

Been keeping snakes for about 25-30 yrs, and corns and Pituophis sp. will always be favorites

 

[Westicles]

And, not to spam this thread, but your evaluation of your snake as "regular" and "boring old" is off base. My personal favorite snake species is a colubrid (same family as your corn snake) -- Lampropeltis knoblochi -- because they're intelligent and calm and curious and trusting and drop dead gorgeous, five characteristics that don't exist together in any of the other species I keep. I suspect your corn snake has those qualities too.

Unfortunately, corn snakes suffered the tragedy of popularity (same as some other really cool reptiles like green iguanas and ball pythons did) and now people look down on them. Wrongly. I've not owned a corn, but they sound like excellent snakes.

Mountain King snakes, huh? Never kept one, but they've been on my list for a while

 

[Malum Argenteum]

Yep, great snakes. Well, once they start feeding on rodents.... I get a couple troublesome starters every year.

I have a pair of L. alterna, too, that's fairly similar to the knobs in temperament and attractiveness.

 

[VictoriaBR]

I have 6 snakes, and only one I gently tap with a paper towel when I open her enclosure, if not she comes out with both barrels blazing. But, none of my other 5 have never had any odd behavior like that. Hopefully, its just an odd occurrence

She sounds like a feisty lady indeed! What is she?

 

[VictoriaBR]

The reason I mentioned it is because when asked about temps, you replied by listing the heat sources, rather than actual temps. Was a bit of a red flag response (no offense intended), but if you think you have temps figured out, no problem.

Personally, I think the enclosure looks great (though I'm not convinced about red light all day, since snakes are very visual animals, but if it's working for you I guess it is working for you). I keep my snakes in pretty utilitarian enclosures, and often see people complicating their animals' enclosures in ways that do not benefit the animal ("bioactive", usually), but it is clear that you've provided some useful hardscape in there. From the snake's POV, that is much better than a spartan tub, and anyone who gives you a hard time about it doesn't know much about snakes.

Also, corn snakes are quite avid climbers in the wild; many academic studies classify them as 'semi arboreal'. Here's a study about birds specifically nesting in trees in ways that attempt to avoid predation by corn snakes:

Do Abandoned Woodpecker Cavities Provide Secondary Cavity Nesters Protection from Climbing Snakes?

The pine forests of the southeastern United States support a number of cavity-nesting birds as well as several species of rat snakes (Pantherophis spp.). Rat snakes are well-documented nest predators, and nest predation of some of the region's cavity nesters is higher than in other areas...

bioone.org

Ah sorry, so during the day his basking platform under the bulb is at 30C. At night the heat mat that’s under the basking platform comes on and is set to 27C though it rarely gets past 25C as I’m on an old military base with draughty damp housing so our ambient room temperature rarely gets over 14C so keeping his tank warm enough in winter without that heat bulb on is an absolute nightmare. It’s another reason he’s got so much decor and things in his tank as i find it helps to retain a bit of heat.
His cool side of the tank is usually around 22C but this does fluctuate depending on how active the heat bulb has been. The lowest I’ve seen it go is 18C. in winter.
Ive been looking into changing the bulb this year actually as I did read about snakes being more aware of light and colours than what was previously thought years ago.
He came from the breeder with a red spot lamp so I guess we’ve always just trusted that the breeders know best and we just stuck with what he’s always had. But that was 12/14 years ago when red spot lamps were the best option, and information has changed so much since then with people really taking note of what these animals need and want.
So I’m open to suggestions on the heat bulb if you have any? Would a white heat bulb one work? My house is very dark inside even with the sun shining in, so I feel he would need some kind of extra light source. I did try a ceramic heat lamp years ago but his tank was plunged into darkness and he rarely came out of his hides, almost as if he thought it was constantly night time. So I put the red bulb back in as I was told snakes can’t see that colour, which I know now is untrue.