Another stick in the spokes

[reptist]

As if species description isnt complicated enough, here are 2 spiders from within 50' of each other, both females and both have shed within the last 3 days, I have seen many spiders from this colony both needing a shed and fresh, and this one suprised me, looked identicle to all the others untill its molt and then BAM! what the he!!.

Cant say that I have ever seen this spider before, especialy in a colony of new rivers, leg and carapace measurements are identicle, as well as spermathecae but visualy it is quite differant, I actualy realy like the looks of her and would like to know if any other new river spiders I have sold to members here end up resembling her, just to get an idea of how many with this look are around.

As you can see by the shed exuvium comparrison they look almost exactly like the orange new river spiders till the matureing molt, if there are too many of them it may make it hard to tell which male goes w/ which female as they are prob almost identicle as well, and probably even harder to differentiate as the males in this area are all remarkably similair.

So far this is the first I have seen and dont know quite what to make of it, deffinately a mind boggeler for me and pretty unexpected, and deffinately an intresting addition to the Aphonopelma muts out here, check em out' LMK if more start to turn up too, as these new river spiders are one of my favs and any new info may shed some light on the scheme of species out there in the desert, enjoy and PEACE, B.

Here are the exuvium pix
View attachment 70872

The familair new river T
View attachment 70873
View attachment 70874


The differant "darker" T.
View attachment 70876
View attachment 70875

 

[reptist]

more pix

heres a few more pix:

 

[Talkenlate04]

I don't see a reason to assume it is anything other then a color variation within the species. IMO. But nothing would surprise me anymore. Maybe you did fine another species........

 

[thirtysixwood]

well I've been thinking about it... I've had 2 river rust females from you... uhm, I know the first one I had was very pretty, and had nice colors...,but the second one you sent me was not so beautiful, it was darker, and a little uglyier looking... lol.... I do remember not being so impressed with the coloring of the second one you sent me...

I'm with ryan though, I've noticed species looking a little different sometimes, or having more color, or less, really tough to say, maybe you have you a case of the ugly duckling..... lol...

In all seriousness, I hope you do come up with an answer... talk to you later,
Jusitn

 

[reptist]

Mut

more than likely a mixture of species, the area is like a transition zone between the valley spiders and the rock burrowers at least 5 differant species overlap in about a 15 square mile area, the thing that is weird is that this is one I havent ran into before, at least not as an adult, so I doubt it is consistant enough to be a species, more like a fluke unless more start turning up????? who knows, keeps my intrest fresh anyway, the mundane tends to aggrivate my A.D.D. and pretty quick the details are lost, in the present. any way yea I think its likely a "mut" but i'd like to see more. B.

 

[Talkenlate04]

so I doubt it is consistent enough to be a species, more like a fluke unless more start turning up?????

With what you said above, that just reinforces my theory of color morph within the species.

 

[reptist]

A color morph brought on by what, the usual causes are enviroment and diet, she was living out amongst the group of similair spiders, eating the same things they were and subjected to the same enviroment, only explination I can think of right now for a color morph to develop would be changes at the gene level via cross/inbreeding, of the 2 I'd say that cross breeding would be more likely due to the convergence of numerous species in that area, it would be a rare case indeed if a color morph just spontaniously manifested w/no inspiration to do so, kinda like space and an object flying in a straight line till it comes in contact w/ another object or force to change its course. B.

 

[UrbanJungles]

Alot of color morphs will surface spontaneously, they don't always need an environmental reason for it. Some species (especially those with large ranges) are just naturally polymorphic and can vary significantly over their range.

I'm with Ryan and the others in that this looks like a slight color morph...basic coloration/pattern/ and morphology are similar otherwise.

 

[reptist]

Spontaniously

I dont subscribe to the spontanious color change idea at all, "cause and effect" is not just a theory, you may not know the reasons for it but there are reasons, most all species w/ a large range do have some color change throughout but it is generaly consistant to geographic areas and hence differing mineralizations of the soil of which these creatures have an almost total relationship, type of prey also has a significant effect in the look of a lifeform if it is altered enough, long enough, to evolve into an actual trait, you wont generaly find the light and dark "phases" at the same spot unless it is a transitional type area where the soil itself is changing in a given distance or there has been enough 1000"s of years pass that the 2 forms have basicly spread so far into each others territory that they live amongst each other but even here, in the beginning there was a reason for the existance of the said "phase" even if that cause is long gone now, if you look beyond the trees there is always a forest. B.

 

[cacoseraph]

what about Scolopendra polymorpha. in the same 100' stretch i found a brick red, a sky blue, an oily green, and many many yellow ones?

occam's razor leads me to think it is a slight color morph also


you can look for morpho diffs if it is a dif species... look at spermethecae, setae patterns (on the newly molted spiders, not the old WC exuvia), etc. of course, their are cryptic species... no morphological diffs but very dif DNA so who knows

 

[Richard McJimsey]

beautiful finds brandon!
ive gotten 3 new rivers from you, and the males seem much more colorful than the female, the female actualy looks rather dull to be honest
and ADD eh? i can relate
edit: the odd darker one is BEAUTIFUL!

-Rick

 

[desertdweller]

I dont subscribe to the spontanious color change idea at all, "cause and effect" is not just a theory, you may not know the reasons for it but there are reasons, most all species w/ a large range do have some color change throughout but it is generaly consistant to geographic areas and hence differing mineralizations of the soil of which these creatures have an almost total relationship, type of prey also has a significant effect in the look of a lifeform if it is altered enough, long enough, to evolve into an actual trait, you wont generaly find the light and dark "phases" at the same spot unless it is a transitional type area where the soil itself is changing in a given distance or there has been enough 1000"s of years pass that the 2 forms have basicly spread so far into each others territory that they live amongst each other but even here, in the beginning there was a reason for the existance of the said "phase" even if that cause is long gone now, if you look beyond the trees there is always a forest. B.

I totally agree. Natural selection does have a profound effect. Since I live in the transition zone here in Sedona I see many forms of color differences and though they are often slight, there are always subtle reasons. There are enough micro climates here in Sedona and in the warmer and lower elevation in Cottonwood and with different soil colors and composition as well as varying predators, the changes are necessary to survival. Given enough time, these neighboring areas produce enough evolutionary changes to warrant further investigation and a fascinating study.

 

[Talkenlate04]

I don't subscribe to the spontaneous color change idea at all

I don't see how you can believe this when spontaneous really is the name of the game when it comes to things like this. I am not saying there is no chance that weather and or other conditions MIGHT play a role in helping those traits surface but it's doubtful because things like color traits are not normally influenced by outside things, they are preset genetic influences just like the color of our eyes and hair.

Occam's razor, leads me to think it is a slight color morph also

A very good point.

 

[reptist]

so you would completely negate that the bright yellow on a pokies legs has anything to do w/ being warning or "flash colors" specificly evolved to ward off potential threats, come on, this is 3rd grade stuff here, or is it just coincidence that a chameleon can blend in so well w/ its environment, hell they have now even evolved to the point where they can regulate the blood flow in their skin to manipulate color to fit the situation better, and we would too, if we had to, for our species to survive.

all the crazy looking leaf mantids just curiously appeared looking exactly like a leaf cause there were already too many rocks around and they wanted to be original? frogs are another great example, or the octopus, I could go on and on, if chance is that freakin randomly percise in your reality/s every day must be nothing short of an awe filled stupor, even with some sort of understanding of why things are the way they are it is pretty incredible but if life on this planet evolved randomly w/ no nudges in either direction from anything this place would make alice in wonderland look like a documentry on dirt!! B.

 

[Talkenlate04]

so you would completely negate that the bright yellow on a pokies legs has anything to do w/ being warning or "flash colors" specificly evolved to ward off potential threats, come on, this is 3rd grade stuff here, or is it just coincidence that a chameleon can blend in so well w/ its environment, hell they have now even evolved to the point where they can regulate the blood flow in their skin to manipulate color to fit the situation better, and we would too, if we had to, for our species to survive.

Ok now you are on another path altogether.Yes colors and patterns seem exist for a reason. I am not debating that.

What I am saying is that slight color morphs have nothing to do with environmental issues, recessive genes within the species would be the cause. Color morphs are going to exist within a species but that in itself does not make it another species.

You are angeling toward the fact that because they look so different to your eye that you think it has too be another Aphonapelma species or a mix between two species, and I disagree.

Occam's razor, leads me to think it is a slight color morph also

You should read about Occam's razor. It makes more sense when you read it yourself rather then have someone else try to explain it.

 

[reptist]

Actualy I wasn't "angling" towards new species at all, I just wanted to know if any of the spiders I have sold/given to people here on ab molted into anything similair, I speculated they may be cross breeds because of their close proximity to so many other species, and the fact that out of literaly hundreds of adults I have seen in the area that I had not seen any others like her, in fact I went ahead and did some measurements (previously stated) and pretty much verified that it most likely was the same species! sorry if you didn't catch that but it was in the OP.

I do know that enviroment, soil mineralization and type of prey can and has played a huge part in the evolution of most if not all species of tarantula surviving today in reguards to coloring & pattern, I have seen the results over and over with my own eyes which is why I put so much effort into defending the idea

If there were a lot of others that I sold that had molted into similair looking spiders then it might be worth taking a closer look into, hence the original reason (aside from showing off some awsome fresh molted females) for this thread, that's all, PEACE, B.

 

[Talkenlate04]

in fact I went ahead and did some measurements (previously stated) and pretty much verified that it most likely was the same species! sorry if you didn't catch that but it was in the OP.

I did read it the first time but you have been all over the place since this started. First your title alone insinuates you think you have a natural hybrid or analogous species on your hands. Then after the first post you are saying you think it's more then likely a "mutt". Then you spent a few post saying how you don't believe in spontaneous color morphs and changes.
And now you are telling me you verified that it was most likely the same species, but that you don't believe it is a color morph. So which is it?

I do know that enviroment, soil mineralization and type of prey can and has played a huge part in the evolution of most if not all species of tarantula surviving today in reguards to coloring & pattern, I have seen the results over and over with my own eyes which is why I put so much effort into defending the idea

Wow really? You have seen evolutionarily results within tarantulas in your lifetime that were caused by soil mineralization? And you can prove this how? :? I was under the impression evolution took a really really long time........

 

[reptist]

sorry but I am Done talking about this w/ you, put in a few hrs collecting and observing and you may see, either way I've done what I needed w/ this thread, you can take over from here out if you wish, humility will over take whichever of us is wrong and maybe a better understanding of the truth will come of that, PEACE, B.

Oh yea and just cause you insinuate something, dont automaticly assume that others may be stuck in the same spot, some have already learned things others of us have not, and some of us dont have time to explain why.

 

[Talkenlate04]

I was just asking you to further explain thoughts. And in the last post specifically where you have seen soil mineralization be responsible for changing a T's colors. It should not be to hard to explain if your below statement is true.

come on, this is 3rd grade stuff here,

Common man lighten up. ;P What kind of discussion would it be if everyone thought the way you did and agreed? I am arguing for arguments sake.

 

[desertdweller]

. . . I was under the impression evolution took a really really long time . . .

Just one interesting point here Ryan. Though evolution does take time in some respects, it is the actual LEAP of evolution we see manifest. Changes don't occur gradually hence the term, "the missing link." To believe otherwise is to contradict science itself. Occums Razor may well refer here to the pattern of evolution that being, commonly a leap, is the most simple answer.