Alacran Tartarus

EAD063

Arachnoprince
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Closest I can find so far without bothering Eric for his input on venezuelian scorpions. Unfortuantely I don't know yet wether this is a native scorp because the website is in spanish and well, I know about 3 words fluently.

http://caibco.ucv.ve/caibco/ESCORPIO/Dorsal.gif

Notice the long, thin body, thin tail and semi bulbous claws, which all match the setup of the original picture.
 

skinheaddave

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may have never ever been exposed to light so having one might unlock the mistery of "scorpion's GLOW"
While I agree that troglobytic scorpions may shed some light on this subject, I doubt you will find something as convenient as the solution to the mystery. As a thought experiment, try to concieve of observations you might make on such a specimen and what conclusions you might be able to draw. Is a fluorescent troglobytic scorpion merely hanging on to ancestral traits? Is a non-fluorescent troglobytic scorpion that way because fluorescence was selectively maintained, because it was selectively discarded due to the new lifestyle, because it is a byproduct of a chemical process modified due to a structural change in the cuticle or simply because of a freak mutation and a founder effect? Or one of many other possible explanations?

I wonder if the reason it is now a preserved specimen is because of the differences in pressure between down there and the surface or because of over exposure to heat or light,
How about because most surveys and field work involve a bottle of alcohol somewhere along the road? You might just as well argue that stuffed birds in a museum are preserved specimens because they were brought down in altitude from their flight.

EAD063 said:
I wonder if these cave dwellers are the "miissing" link between primiative and new world species.
Do you have some reasoning for this? If they were a missing link between old world and new world specimens then are you suggesting that all new world specimens have regained median eyes somewhere along their evolutionary pathway? What about old world/new world specimens that have a clear biogeographical link before the division of land masses?


For all we know there could have been a massive population a million years ago right in the area where that cavren collapsed,
It is possible, of course, that speciation occured due to some cataclysm. Far more likely, however, speciation occured as surface scorpions moved further into caves in response to random mutations which favoured them in the newer environment.

EAD063 said:
These scorps would probaly provide some assistance in the extraocular sensitivity field of study.
It would definitely be interesting to see if they have an extraoccular light sense. They may even have the ability to sense light using the same neural mechanisms as other scorpions, despite lacking external eyes.

EAD063 said:
Then take as many species that I can find from those areas and see if they show any anatomic resemblance. :)
Might I suggest that you are horribly underqualified for this type of study? Not that you can't do it -- but I would suggest a generalized study of biogeographical concepts be your first step, followed by a familiarization with the current understanding of taxonomy and phylogeny of scorpions. The project you have just described is something best undertaken by someone who has done the equivelent of at least a master's degree (counting, of course, home study to the same standards). I can point out morphological similarities between L.quinquestriatus and S.mesaensis. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a complete waste of my time to try to make the argument of recent common ancestry.

Idle speculation has its place. Asking questions as well. Still, it would be nice to see some more effort put into answering questions -- or at least narrowing down which questions can/should be answered. I suggested a thought experiment above and I suggest the same activity to anyone with an idea about something. Ask yourself what would constitute proof or disproof for your case. Then look around and see if there isn't already some evidence that applies.

Cheers,
Dave
 

EAD063

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Hey Dave, yes I realize I could never sucessfully under go such a complex study, and the true origin and morphology of such a remarkable species will most likely remain unknown for some time. And that it will take an educated and dedicated individual and a significant amount of time to merely brush upon the many questions offered by such a peculiar individual. I guess through lack of information and resources, such a superb specimen will mostly likely remain a mystery in the terms of the layman and possibly the scientific community. I greatly commend your scientific nature and hope that someday you have the oppurtunity to partake in such an interesting and possibly groundbreaking study like this one. I think we can all thank you for such an interesting and detailed response to an even more interesting issue.
 

Cheshire

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about the prey item i think i have an idea, BAT FLEASS!!! ;P ;P ;P
maybe some beetles or worms, or roaches that eat rocks...
who knows...
:D
In many cave environments, there are entire food chains that are based upon bacteria that feed on rocks.

I don't know anything about the area where this guy was found, but I'd venture to imagine he fed on other blind invertebrates. Blind crickets, perhaps?

Looks maleish to me. I'd like to see a female specimen.
 

marcelo_987

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There is a research on Vaejovids that is looking into light sensivity in other areas of the body besides the lateral and median eyes. Maybe this species or genus has the ability to sense light in other ways besides the eyes most,if not all, surface scorpions have. I doubt this species will venture close to the cave entrance, so finding them near the surface would be hard.
 

HackoDis

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I cannot you believe guys did not think of this. Smell, pheromones etc etc. The pectines (sp) are used to detect vibrations and pheromones ?? Quick search of the net found this

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~chuaeecc/anat/anat1.htm


Pectens
Also known as the pectines. It is a peculiar gill like structure which some postulated to be remnants of the ancestral gills of the Silurian water scorpions.. This however has not been substantiated and pectens apparently is also present in euryterids (ancestral scorpions). It is found to be of sensory function. In most scorpions, it has mechano-receptors which is hypothesized to help the male choose suitable substrate for depositing spermatophore and sense surface vibrations. In some species, it is found to have some contact chemoreceptors. It is one of the most convenient means of determining sex. of some species.

So maybe the scorpion hunts with pheromones.
 

skinheaddave

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So maybe the scorpion hunts with pheromones.
I don't think anyone was questioning how they hunt. Scorpions rely on vibrations and chemical cues for prey detection and identification. That being said, it is unlikley that the pectines play a role in hunting behaviour and to my knowledge this has certainly not been demonstrated. The various mechanoreceptors and chemoreceptors on the legs, pedipalps, chelicera and metasoma, however, would all play a role in this function.

That being said, scorpion eyes have been demonstrated to play a role in circadian entrainment as well as navigation and negative phototaxis.

Pectines have been demonstrated to have a role in mating as well as substrate differentiation.

Cheers,
Dave
 

Thaedion

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here is a link to a map showing the cross section of the caves of the Sistema Huautla. where the Alacran tartarus (Francke 1982) is known only from deep caves of the Sistema Huautla, Oaxaca "
 

HackoDis

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So i can provide the 4x4, someone wanna provide the cash ??

My bad on the pheromone part, oh well it's fun to learn new things :p
 

Arachno Kid

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You had gotten a specimen, Lucky! Can you answer some of the questions on here :p. I know I cant. My question is how long did it take you to find it?
 
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