Advice on draining Zilla's cyst/growth needed!

[Lisa Gayle 713]

So sorry about Zilla

Rob, I'm so sorry about Zilla.

I remember your youtube video that showed Zilla's "growth" to be full of fluid. I really think if you tried to drain a bit out, you could investigate it further. Btw, whatever happened to the vet you were going to see?

Perhaps you could determine what the fluid is. (I'm guessing hemolymph. Has she increased her water intake?) Do you know anyone that works in a lab/hospital? You could send it out for cultures...

I really doubt that you would harm her more by trying to take a sample. I know you would be super careful and use an itty-bitty needle. And seal it up right away.

If it was me, I'd want to know that I did everything I could. But, I tend to be impatient. You've been watching this for a while now. I am concerned about the skin on the abdomen that is turning dark. It reminds me of a melanomic mole! Perhaps the "skin" is stressed from the internal pressure? :?

I don't know. I'm just throwing out ideas here... I really hope she makes it. As always, Zilla is in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[NChromatus]

I think she may be doomed I agree, but it can't hurt to try...maybe something can be learned.

This is my feeling- that, if you don't do anything, she'll probably die (whether before molting, during a molt, or if it gets even worse after a molt).

I know very little on this subject, but from what I've seen this is a very dire affliction for a tarantula.

Personally, I would, with planning, at least try something. Just think carefully about what you're going to do before, and have steady hands. CO2 may (or may not, depending on her health) be in order.

At the very least, you can add useful information to the hobby and maybe even help out others who have the same problem in the future.

Again, though, plan well and be steady in execution.

 

[robc]

At least in the case with my blondi, her abdomen was black for over 3 months before it burst. I too was hoping that this was a sign that she was going to molt out of it. In this case, I don't think the darkening of the abdomen is a sign that she was pre-molt.

Here are the threads about my blondi:

T. blondi sick?
This one I posted after her abdomen had been dark for over 3 weeks.

T. blondi dying... help!
This thread is from 3 months later, when her abdomen finally burst.

That looks almost exactly like what Zilla looks like....odd question: what color was the fluid that came out and how was it - watery or thick? More like an infection or blood. Just thinking that maybe if yours had the same thing Zilla has, we'd at least have an idea of what's inside and whether or not I could drain it. Thanks for posting the links - I'm sure it's still difficult to look at. One more question, if you don't mind....what did her abdomen feel like when you touched it, if you did, before it burst. I lightly touched Zilla's abdomen and it feels like a rubber ball almost full of air (not so full it's hard but where it'll push in slightly and then bounce back). It's really odd....

 

[xhexdx]

Even if she dies without interferance from Rob, she can still be frozen/preserved and dissected. No real reason to attempt anything while she's alive unless it's for the sole purpose of trying to save her.

 

[Shell]

Yeah....trying to figure out where I'd insert a needle is difficult. I'd figure somewhere near where the growth started in the first place. But again, just a guess really...

I would honestly have no clue on a spider Typically in a mass that needs draining on a mammal, you can see a point in it where it's starting to "thin" from the pressure. I don't really see anything like this on Zilla. Although I would be more inclined to go from the top of the mass or the back, not where it started as it's much too close to the rest of her body (again this is based of vet tech experience with mammals, so it can't compare.) Really though, I don't know.

I do have an amazing exotics vet though, he specializes in some pretty wild stuff, and did surgery on a fish once that had a mass. I wonder what he would suggest if I emailed him the pics. It's totally your call Rob, but I would be willing to talk to him about them. Him and I have discussed "vet care" in tarantula's before and he has always said he would be up for any kind of a challenge. He may have some idea's we haven't thought of.

Edit* I'm not saying he would know what to do at all. Just that most vets have zero clue when it comes to inverts but he has experience that most don't AND is interested in tarantula's, so you never know.

 

[Lisa Gayle 713]

Well, Rob... It seems like you are screwed either way, but you need to decide for yourself: would you rather risk doing something that may hasten her demise OR make her as comfortable as possible and pray for a miracle? In the end, you have to face you in the mirror, ya know? btw, What does Dani think?

 

[robc]

I really wouldn't risk it. My H. mac had almost the same thing your girl has. She molted out of just fine. You wouldn't want her abdomen to rupture from doing this! Crossin my fingers for you rob!

Did your H.mac act really sluggish? And do you happen to have any pics of her? Sorry, just trying to get as much info together as possible.

I would honestly have no clue on a spider Typically in a mass that needs draining on a mammal, you can see a point in it where it's starting to "thin" from the pressure. I don't really see anything like this on Zilla. Although I would be more inclined to go from the top of the mass or the back, not where it started as it's much too close to the rest of her body (again this is based of vet tech experience with mammals, so it can't compare.) Really though, I don't know.

I do have an amazing exotics vet though, he specializes in some pretty wild stuff, and did surgery on a fish once that had a mass. I wonder what he would suggest if I emailed him the pics. It's totally your call Rob, but I would be willing to talk to him about them. Him and I have discussed "vet care" in tarantula's before and he has always said he would be up for any kind of a challenge. He may have some idea's we haven't thought of.

Edit* I'm not saying he would know what to do at all. Just that most vets have zero clue when it comes to inverts but he has experience that most don't AND is interested in tarantula's, so you never know.

Shell, I would GREATLY appreciate this....more than you know......do you need more detailed pics....I will get them from every angle if needed!!

Again, thank you!

Someone on my site posted these two articles so I thought I would share these. Thought you guys might like them.


Great article on a tarantula with an abscess and it's treatment:

http://arachnophiliac.info/burrow/news/sick_tarantula.htm


Nice article/pics on tarantula anatomy:

http://brettmacquarrie.tripod.com/tarantulaanatomy/

(Thanks to nikinizor for posting these!)

 

[Thompson08]

Did your H.mac act really sluggish? And do you happen to have any pics of her? Sorry, just trying to get as much info together as possible.

She acted a little sluggish but after the molt she went back to acting normal. I don't think I have a pic of it anymore, I had to delete most of the pics off my photobucket account to make room. If I find it I'll send it to you via pm.

 

[ZergFront]

I don't know about the mass itself but I wonder if that black spot was from rubbing. You did say she's been dragging, right?

This really sucks. I hope something goes right but it doesn't look promising..

 

[proper_tea]

That looks almost exactly like what Zilla looks like....odd question: what color was the fluid that came out and how was it - watery or thick? More like an infection or blood. Just thinking that maybe if yours had the same thing Zilla has, we'd at least have an idea of what's inside and whether or not I could drain it. Thanks for posting the links - I'm sure it's still difficult to look at. One more question, if you don't mind....what did her abdomen feel like when you touched it, if you did, before it burst. I lightly touched Zilla's abdomen and it feels like a rubber ball almost full of air (not so full it's hard but where it'll push in slightly and then bounce back). It's really odd....

You know, I never really touched it while she was alive. When I found her with it burst, most of the fluid was lost already, but it appeared to be watery, like hemolymph. As you can see in the pictures on those two threads, once her abdomen burst, it was a deflated mess. What was clear was that there was a whole lot of space in there that was taken up only by fluids... as if the fluids had created a cavity in her abdomen, and when it burst, there was just a whole there (not sure if that is a clear way of describing it). If you look at Zilla, does it look like her abdomen is bulging on a particular side?

Oh, when my spider's abdomen burst, it burst towards the back, on top. She also had those dark spots underneath, but they're not where the rupture happened. It really was as if the skin was just stretched too tight back there, and ripped. The hole was about 1.5". Also, once it had burst, the skin was paper thin in the area where the rupture occurred.

If you are going to try to drain it (which personally, I recommend, as I believe it is your only hope, and I wish I had done so), I would not be concerned about hitting anything internal with a shallow needle prick. If you look at the pics of my spider's abdomen after it had burst, you can see that there was a lot of extra room in there... where the cyst was her abdomen looks like an empty sac.

I'd say drain off some fluid to a reasonable level, and just monitor it and hope to get her to her next molt.

 

[Falk]

I would not risk it with a needle, with their open blood streams it could be bad. If she had a smaller abdomen it might be easier for her to pull through the ecdysis.

 

[Bakeithn]

Well, there has been many people in under the same circumstances as you and zilla who have choosen to do nothing and have had negative results. I think you should break the pattern and attempt something that could help. At least it wouldnt just be a repeat of history, youd be experimenting with something new that could be positive. For example: If yuove had 5 dogs that keep getting ran over in the street, instead of just standing back and hoping that the outome is different for the next dog, why not try to do something about it.

I mean, history has taught us that under these circumstances, Zilla is probable gonna die, if you do nothing. But, history or past experiences havent taught us that if you try to drain this mystery cyst, that it will kill her. If that makes any sense to anyone who reads it.

 

[proper_tea]

So, I was thinking about your situation after I posted, and I may be backing off on the whole "drain it" position, and advocating something else.

Here's my thought: A tarantula has an open blood system. In the case with my T, when her abdomen split she essentially bled to death. I'm concerned that draining your spider's abdomen to relieve pressure on it will also cause an overall drop in diastolic pressure, that could be fatal to her. Essentially, since her abdomen is already engorged (with what I believe is blood), and stretched out, if pressure is relieved on the abdomen, it will be lost throughout her body.

What I would like to suggest instead, is that you do something to reinforce her abdomen, and prevent it from splitting. I was thinking is superglue, in a crisscross pattern on the entire surface of her abdomen (save for book lungs spinnerets, and anus, obviously).

You will be limiting the ability of the abdomen to further expand. Therefore it may not be bad to still drain a little bit of the fluid. Still, I think this method seems safer to me.

 

[robc]

She is gone

Unfortunately, Zilla passed away about 5 minutes ago. I checked on her about 30 minutes before that and she was still moving around sluggishly. Went back and she was completely gone. Her abdomen is now leaking but there's no wetness under her so it looks like it started leaking after she passed.

I greatly appreciate all of the thoughts and suggestions. You guys all make the hobby what it is and I thank you for your time.

Rob & Dani

 

[Tim R.]

Bummer, that sucks

 

[xhexdx]

Sorry to hear that, Rob.

 

[robc]

Sorry to hear that, Rob.

Thank you joe, I appreciate your thoughts and advice....it is greatly appreciated!

 

[belljar77]

Oh Rob, that's so sad. My condolences to you. I know many people will be mourning Zilla's passing with you.

 

[robc]

Oh Rob, that's so sad. My condolences to you. I know many people will be mourning Zilla's passing with you.

Thank you, it was a very emotional thing, the entire family came down to see her and we all did cry....she was very special to us. She was the first T I checked on every morning, and the last T I looked at before going to bed.

 

[B8709]

Ohhh no. So sorry that she passed . I loved your Zilla vids (when she was healthy) and it's sad to see her go.