A slight dilemna involving mold

[LucN]

I've just noticed a bit of mold in my boehmei's cage. The reason why the substrate was dampened enough to promote mold growth was that she is in heavy premolt and I thought just overflowing the water dish to cover 1/4 of the cage would create enough extra humidity for when she does molt. It's mostly located in a corner. I hesite to remove it since I'd rather not disturb and stress out my T so close to molting. Will it eventually die off if I let the substrate dry out ? Can a bit of mold pose a threat to a T in premolt ?

Anyways, here's a picture that should be useful.

What do you good people reccomend as the best course of action ?

Thanks everyone !

 

[Malhavoc's]

such a small amount is handled easily, do not overflow the water dish again, infact you could remove the water dish, clean it and re add it on another side and let that cornor dry out, of course you will always have an issue of it returning once it gets enough moisture but for the immediate time being you shouldnt worry too much about it. Let her molt, then do a tank cleaning/introduce ispods/etc

 

[LucN]

such a small amount is handled easily, do not overflow the water dish again, infact you could remove the water dish, clean it and re add it on another side and let that cornor dry out, of course you will always have an issue of it returning once it gets enough moisture but for the immediate time being you shouldnt worry too much about it. Let her molt, then do a tank cleaning/introduce ispods/etc

Thank you so much !! Now I can relax a bit. Usually I keep the cage bone dry, but I went a little overboard with the overflowing. It's the first time I get mold in my Ts enclosures. Good to know it's easy to control.

 

[Malhavoc's]

I say this with a pinch of salt.

Most mold is harmless to living animals. unless in overhwelming amounts.

All containers will have mold of one form or another.

With such a limited amount drying that area wil limit/stop its growth, so your tarantula should be fine to molt.

When you want to complete remove it, you will have to change substraite wash/bleach everything else, put it al back in then let the spider in once more.

Isopods (pill bugs etc) are great for eating the same things mold do, thus limiting its appearance, however they can snack on an unprotected tarantula, so adding them to a tarantula without a burrow right when its about to molt is a bad idea.

So my opinion to recapp is, your ts fine just water elsewhere and let that area dr until molt then deal with the situation.

 

[peterUK]

If you are that worried take out the wet corner and replace with drier substrate.
Unless the spider is in mid moult there is nothing to worry about.

 

[Stan Schultz]

I've just noticed a bit of mold in my boehmei's cage. The reason why the substrate was dampened enough to promote mold growth was that she is in heavy premolt and I thought just overflowing the water dish to cover 1/4 of the cage would create enough extra humidity for when she does molt. ...

Your original hypothesis is fallacious. Except perhaps with babies that have yet to develop a functional waterproof coating on their epicuticles (outer exoskeleton layer), external humidity is almost meaningless with tarantulas. Tarantulas that are larger than about 2" DLS (diagonal leg span) will have developed a heavy enough epicuticle and wax-like layer that they're virtually hermetically sealed off from their environment. Also, they're large enough and hold enough water internally that they don't need the extra humidity. (But, note the qualifiers. They do "leak" small amounts of water through some places in their exoskeletons, and while doing some things in their lives.)

As far as I can determine from our own experience and from anecdotal reports, baby tarantulas have trouble molting because they ARE kept too dry, or because they have genetic or developmental flaws that complicate the molting process. And, very large, very old tarantulas have trouble molting because they are too old, feeble, slow, or weak to get out of the old exoskeleton before their new exoskeleton begins to harden, thus trapping them in the old one.

However, note clearly that tarantulas' exoskeletons do not harden by drying and the presence or absence of excessive humidity in their cages will have almost nothing to do with the process. The hardening is due to a sort of tanning process as chemical cross-links form to stiffen the matrix of chitin and proteins that the exoskeleton is made of.

I need to add this one to the list of myths I'm compiling!

Enjoy your little 8-legged Houdini!

 

[Malhavoc's]

Your original hypothesis is fallacious. Except perhaps with babies that have yet to develop a functional waterproof coating on their epicuticles (outer exoskeleton layer), external humidity is almost meaningless with tarantulas. Tarantulas that are larger than about 2" DLS (diagonal leg span) will have developed a heavy enough epicuticle and wax-like layer that they're virtually hermetically sealed off from their environment. Also, they're large enough and hold enough water internally that they don't need the extra humidity. (But, note the qualifiers. They do "leak" small amounts of water through some places in their exoskeletons, and while doing some things in their lives.)

As far as I can determine from our own experience and from anecdotal reports, baby tarantulas have trouble molting because they ARE kept too dry, or because they have genetic or developmental flaws that complicate the molting process. And, very large, very old tarantulas have trouble molting because they are too old, feeble, slow, or weak to get out of the old exoskeleton before their new exoskeleton begins to harden, thus trapping them in the old one.

However, note clearly that tarantulas' exoskeletons do not harden by drying and the presence or absence of excessive humidity in their cages will have almost nothing to do with the process. The hardening is due to a sort of tanning process as chemical cross-links form to stiffen the matrix of chitin and proteins that the exoskeleton is made of.

I need to add this one to the list of myths I'm compiling!

Enjoy your little 8-legged Houdini!

Are tarantulas not lubricated during the time of the molt to ease the process of withdrawing themselves from their old molt? I was never sure.

If yes: Does humidity during the time of the molt slow the evaporation/dissipation of said lubrication?

If no: why do some arid species I've encountered in the wild like to maintain a burrow beneath a log, rock/deep area/ where the ground is naturuay more moist then the surface, is it simply to attain a drinking source?

 

[Tarac]

For many insects, molting in very humid conditions can have the same effect as being too dry. To use some goofy similes, too dry and it's like trying to flake off brittle wall-paper rather than peel a nice elastic expanse. Too wet and it's like trying to strip off a pair of soaking wet blue jeans. Lepidoptera have a very short window of time to escape their various former selves throughout their development and you get problems from moisture levels on both ends of the spectrum. I'd be surprised if the mechanism was really that different since most of the structural and chemical components are shared on the molecular level.

 

[Stan Schultz]

Are tarantulas not lubricated during the time of the molt to ease the process of withdrawing themselves from their old molt? I was never sure. ...

Yes, a fluid is produced during the molting process that first digests away a layer of cells to separate the old from the new, developing cuticular layers. (See this Wikipedia article for more information.) Later, as the spider slides out of its old cuticle, this fluid doubtlessly helps lubricate the process. But, a brief search on the 'Net failed to produce a name for the fluid and my memory is failing me this morning.

... If yes: Does humidity during the time of the molt slow the evaporation/dissipation of said lubrication? ...

Probably not. From a theoretical perspective, the old cuticle which retains its water-impervious properties during molting still covers the spider until the final stages. It would slow or nearly stop any evaporation of the fluid until very near the end of the actual molting operation. Remember that the slipping/sliding parts are inside the old cuticle and protected by it, not out in the open.

From a practical perspective, any who have watched their tarantulas molt can attest to the fact that the inside of the old cuticle remains moist, and the cuticle itself very pliable, for hours after it has been cast off, even in a dry cage.

..If no: why do some arid species I've encountered in the wild like to maintain a burrow beneath a log, rock/deep area/ where the ground is naturuay more moist then the surface, is it simply to attain a drinking source?

Where to dig a burrow is a behavioral act that can be triggered by a wide range of different things, not just any relationship to molting. The fact that the soil may be damper under such cover might be advantageous during a molt, but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with molting. In fact, it might be counterproductive to build a burrow based on molting preferences when you consider that the animal still has to live there for the other 11-1/2 months a year, or annually suffer extensive exposure to predators and the elements if a new burrow must be dug for every molt.

And, the same tarantula (or those of its same kind) live in burrows when rocks and logs are not immediately available and do just fine. Which begs the question of why choose a rock or log at all?

Also, one may logically assume that the air at the bottom of a burrow would be slightly more humid than open air, precisely the same as under a rock or log, so why choose a log or rock instead of the open ground? Or, vice versa?

Tarantulas are great opportunists and my guess is that they'll use whatever cover they can find to avoid cannibalism, predation, or death from exposure. If they stumble across a rock, they'll dig under the rock. If they don't happen upon a rock, they dig a hole wherever it's possible, convenient, or necessary. And, the tarantulas we find are merely the extremely lucky few that managed to survive long enough to find good cover.


Why did the tarantula cross the road?

He knew he had 8 legs and 8 eyes, he also figured he had 8 lives!

Alright, I'll stop my feeble attempt at bad jokes.

 

[sbullet]

what's preventing humid inclosures from getting mold like crazy if this one does? im worried about my new pokie.

 

[mcluskyisms]

Why did the tarantula cross the road?

He knew he had 8 legs and 8 eyes, he also figured he had 8 lives!

Alright, I'll stop my feeble attempt at bad jokes.

I thought your feeble attempt at a bad joke was very well executed there Stan.

 

[Malhavoc's]

what's preventing humid inclosures from getting mold like crazy if this one does? im worried about my new pokie.

Good Maitanance.

1) remove uneaten food items/ food boli(boluses?)/dead insects
2) bake substrate to kill mold before implimenting
3) Try not to soak the tank. Humidity doesnt mean large amunts of water always.
4) isopods.











Side note, Thanks for the explination pikaia, you have given me my reading material for the day.

 

[natebugman]

So, Stan, do you keep your rainforest species at a higher humidity level or do you keep them basically all the same? Every one gets a water dish and dry substrate and no misting?

 

[Stan Schultz]

what's preventing humid inclosures from getting mold like crazy if this one does? ...

Probably nothing is preventing things in a humid enclosure from developing mold. But, there are literally thousands of different types of "mold." ("Mold" is a vernacular name for just about any sort of fungal mycelium. Note that there are two links box cared together here. Be sure to visit both.) And, some of them produce very visible structures, others are very hidden or cryptic. Basically, if the substance is organic in nature (e.g., able to be rotted by any biological process) and there is any water available at all there's almost surely some fungus that can grow on it. Did you know that there are fungi that live on diesel fuel? (Google diesel contamination fungus site:edu.) The fungus forms mycelial mats on the diesel/water interface in the bottom of fuel tanks, and subsequently clogs fuel filters on the way to jet engines and other diesel powered machinery.

Fungal growths (a.k.a. mold) of themselves are seldom a problem with tarantulas. But, they're harbingers of bad things to come. Anywhere a mold can grow in a tarantula's cage can also support a host of dangerous bacteria, several infectious nematodes, seed infestations of mites, and a bunch of other nasties that we dearly want to protect our valuable tarantulas from. So, we normally advise enthusiasts to keep their cages dry to suppress these things. (Unless, of course, you have some really good reason why the cage needs to be damp and humid.)

... im worried about my new pokie.

Are you inferring that you're keeping your pokie in a humid cage? How big is it (DLS please)? Do you have any idea why you might be doing so? Has anyone ever explained the reasoning? Surely you're not reading those care sheets again?

---------- Post added 04-04-2012 at 08:50 AM ----------

So, Stan, do you keep your rainforest species at a higher humidity level or do you keep them basically all the same? ...

Back in the day when we could keep tarantulas (I now live in a motorhome


(As usual, click or right-click the thumbnail to see a larger image. Click the resulting image to zoom to full size. Images hosted by ImageShack.)

and am a "snowbird," living in the southern USA during winter and Canada during summer. Taking tarantulas across the border is a nightmare!) we kept almost all our tarantulas either in simple aquariums, dry, but with a water dish,



or in plastic shoe boxes with about 12 or 14 holes melted into the sides. (High enough to keep crickets from climbing out, low enough so they wouldn't be blocked by the cover.)



The mesh covers on the aquariums were covered with plastic food wrap and held in place with a strip of tape (That's Magic Disappearing Tape that didn't disappear in the camera's flash.) to hold in the humidity from the water dish. The limited ventilation in the shoe boxes accomplished the same feat. This assures a nearly constant, elevated humidity.

We lived in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, in the "rain shadow" of the Canadian Rockies. Officially, we were living in a near desert or desert habitat, and according to one weather announcer on the 6:00 news, "It's dry enough out there to suck water out of a rock!" Especially during winter. That's why we took special precautions about humidity. People living along the Atlantic coast of the USA or other humid areas probably wouldn't need to take those precautions. We managed to breed a bunch of species, mostly Brachypelma, but one or two others (e.g., A. avicularia) as well.

The only tarantulas we kept in really humid cages were Theraphosa blondi (goliath birdeater), Hysterocrates gigas (Maybe. That identity was always in question.), and the Megaphobema species. I have been told that the skeleton tarantulas (genus Ephebopus) also require excessively humid cages. And, there is always the chance that some unusual southern Asian species also requires a damp cage, but because few of those were being imported back then, and we never had a chance to keep any, I can't speak about them with any authority. I DO know, however, that the Haplopelma species do NOT require an excessively damp cage, not even H. lividum, the cobalt blue tarantula. H. lividum DOES need to burrow however, irrespective of the humidity. Apparently it's more a psychological thing rather than a physiological thing, and this may be the best indication thus far that tarantulas can have a psychology!

You can almost always tell when the humidity is too low in your tarantula's cage. The spider will spend an inordinate amount of time near, on top of, or even soaking in the water dish. When that happens you need to act fast. Restrict ventilation completely. Use a larger water dish or add a second water dish. Get the cage into a cooler spot in your home.

Keeping the so-called swamp dwellers (e.g., Theraphosa blondi (goliath birdeater)) in a damp, humid cage puts them at great risk of some terrible disease or infestation. For these, set up a second cage identical to the one you now have the tarantula in, but keep it bone dry. Store it away (e.g., in a closet). As soon as you even suspect that your swamp dweller is having a problem with something virulent, wet down the extra cage and switch the tarantula into it. As soon as practical you should clean the used cage and set it up fresh and new, but dry, and store it away again.

We also used the same practice with our baby tarantulas. They need to be kept in a damp container until they have a DLS of about 1.5" (38 mm), and this puts them at great risk. Anytime I had a problem, even something as silly as dumping in too much water, I could switch them to a clean container within seconds.

... Every one gets a water dish and dry substrate and no misting?

Every one got a water dish whether they needed it or not. And, I never, ever misted anything, not even the orchids! I don't think I even had a mister! I've said it over and over again, misting is a waste of time and effort, and only annoys the tarantula.

If you've restricted ventilation enough (see above), the humidity is already high and misting isn't needed.

If you haven't done anything to restrict ventilation, the added humidity will have wafted away almost before you can put the mister away.

All you've done is annoy the tarantula.

[size=+1]DO NOT ANNOY THE SPIDER![/size]

 

[natebugman]

Thanks for the reply, Stan.

I don't mist my cages to raise the humidity. My arboreals (Avicularia sp., Psalmopeous sp., etc.) seem to ignore their water dishes but will come out and drink the water droplets from the sides of their cages. I will admit to occassionally misting some of the others out of habit/guilt. Before I moved to Florida, I lived in Lubbock, TX, and I can remember days where I would wet the substrate, mist, and cover the cage just to get the humidity up to 35%. Old habits die hard.

One more question. You mention that tarantulas that are kept too dry spend most of there time near the water dish. Could this be the case with my G. rosea? She spends most of her time cuddled up to her water dish. Sometimes with her feet on the edge of it, but rarely drinking. She "plays" tug-of-war with me for it when I take it to clean and refill it. Because of her disgust for all other things even slightly damp, I took this to be a quirk of her "personality". She eats probably about once every two months if I'm lucky. She did once fast for two years. I assumed all of her behavior was due to her species, but perhaps I'm missing something? I just find it difficult to believe she is too dry in the same room with rainforest dwellers who seem fine with the conditions.

 

[LucN]

Ok, given that she still haven't flipped and was moving around, I finally went in and removed most, if not all the mold using my tongs. Now I'm going to leave her be and allow the substrate around the water dish to dry out fully. Guess I won't be overflowing the water dish with either her, my B. smithi or my upcoming B. emilia anytime soon.

 

[Stan Schultz]

... I don't mist my cages to raise the humidity. My arboreals (Avicularia sp., Psalmopeous sp., etc.) seem to ignore their water dishes but will come out and drink the water droplets from the sides of their cages. ...

Whatever works for you. Even our arboreal Avicularia, however, soon learned where the water dish was. And, while you may not see them drinking, they do. At 3:00 AM after the lights have been out for several hours and there are no disturbances they'll pussyfoot out of their nests and ever so quietly slip down the side of the cage to sip from the water dish. Do NOT think that they're retarded just because they belong to a vastly different branch of life on Earth.

... I will admit to occassionally misting some of the others out of habit/guilt. Before I moved to Florida, I lived in Lubbock, TX, and I can remember days where I would wet the substrate, mist, and cover the cage just to get the humidity up to 35%. Old habits die hard. ...

Indeed they do! I still give my Grand Am a little shot of gas as I turn off the ignition. In spite of the fact that it has an electronic ignition.

... You mention that tarantulas that are kept too dry spend most of there time near the water dish. Could this be the case with my G. rosea? She spends most of her time cuddled up to her water dish. Sometimes with her feet on the edge of it, but rarely drinking. She "plays" tug-of-war with me for it when I take it to clean and refill it. Because of her disgust for all other things even slightly damp, I took this to be a quirk of her "personality". She eats probably about once every two months if I'm lucky. She did once fast for two years. I assumed all of her behavior was due to her species, but perhaps I'm missing something? I just find it difficult to believe she is too dry in the same room with rainforest dwellers who seem fine with the conditions.

Try an experiment. Use a larger water dish (at least the width and depth of a tuna fish can), and completely cover the cage with plastic food wrap. You want an almost perfect seal, no ventilation. Watch its behavior over the next few weeks. Report back on this thread so we can keep track.

You needn't worry about suffocating the tarantula. They have extremely low metabolic rates, so their oxygen demands are almost non-existent. And, the plastic food wrap is fairly permeable to both oxygen and carbon dioxide, at least enough so to allow sufficient oxygen to diffuse through the plastic to support your tarantula.

Oh, how I love the simple, profound experiments!

---------- Post added 04-04-2012 at 05:57 PM ----------

Ok, given that she still haven't flipped and was moving around, I finally went in and removed most, if not all the mold using my tongs. Now I'm going to leave her be and allow the substrate around the water dish to dry out fully. Guess I won't be overflowing the water dish with either her, my B. smithi or my upcoming B. emilia anytime soon.

Right! Don't pamper your tarantulas, especially the Brachypelma[/b]. They're nearly made of cast iron. Just give them the basics and they're quite happy.

The one extra little thing that I would like enthusiasts to do is to supply each of their full grown tarantulas with a well washed ping pong ball to play with. And report back to us on which species, age, and sex seem to play with them after the lights go out. Try it!

 

[natebugman]

Well, I added a larger water dish to my G. rosea cage and covered the top with clear plastic wrap. At first, I thought I have been keeping her wrong all these years. She became more active, she ate a cricket three weeks in a row, laid down some new webbing. I thought she might even be laying down a molt mat. She stopped cuddling up to her old water dish. But now she seems to have gone back to her old ways: ignoring crickets, moving little to none, and now cuddling up to her new, bigger water dish.

Anyone have any ideas on the reversal?

 

[hamhock 74]

Well, I added a larger water dish to my G. rosea cage and covered the top with clear plastic wrap. At first, I thought I have been keeping her wrong all these years. She became more active, she ate a cricket three weeks in a row, laid down some new webbing. I thought she might even be laying down a molt mat. She stopped cuddling up to her old water dish. But now she seems to have gone back to her old ways: ignoring crickets, moving little to none, and now cuddling up to her new, bigger water dish.

Anyone have any ideas on the reversal?

Sounds llike a rosie being a rosie.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/roses.html

 

[sbullet]

Pikai thanks for the post but I've chilled out since then let him do his thang. Sometimes a little damp, sometimes dry, sometimes some mold, sometimes not. Not too worried, it seems extremely happy... I regret giving it this hollow log, it NEVER comes out-- not even at night. I'll probably be mean and get rid of it this summer.