A new perspective on hybrids: Please, hear me out

[Patherophis]

Are T hybrids sterile, or can they reproduce?

Unforunately they can reproduce quite well.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Why do you want to hybridize... just to see what you can produce, or for some conservation effort?

Are T hybrids sterile, or can they reproduce?

I never said that I personally want to. I just said that it's not as apocalyptic as many thing

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Unforunately they can reproduce quite well.

Quick question, why are mammal hybrids usually sterile while tarantula (and possibly all arthropod) hybrids reproduce fine?

 

[Nightshady]

Unforunately they can reproduce quite well.

Interesting. I can see people trying hybridization to try and create new breeds. Has this been done before with any success? Seems like it can be a challenge to get the same species to breed at times. Imagine it's even harder with different species.

 

[Nightshady]

I never said that I personally want to. I just said that it's not as apocalyptic as many thing

I don't get why someone would want to breed two similar species... what's the point? But breeding two totally different species would be interesting only to see what the offspring would look like (T. blondi + GBB or something). Designer T's... the wave of the future! LOL

 

[CladeArthropoda]

While there is no reasonable chance of bringing their population back to the wild, there is something to be said about preserving an animal the way it naturally evolved considering we're the reason for their extinction.

This reminds me. If a species goes extinct in the wild and only remains in captivity, it will inevitably be domesticated. There will be generation after generation after generation in a safe environment with no predators and free health care. They will loose many of their wild behaviors and turn into something quite different from their wild ancestors.

 

[Patherophis]

Interesting. I can see people trying hybridization to try and create new breeds. Has this been done before with any success? Seems like it can be a challenge to get the same species to breed at times. Imagine it's even harder with different species.

It s made because of money ("I dont have suitable male for this female so I would use what I got, I need a lot of slings ...") and stupidy. Hybrids are quite difficult to identify, so they are often sell as one of parent species and new owners continue breeding them without knowing what they realy have.

I don't get why someone would want to breed two similar species... what's the point? But breeding two totally different species would be interesting only to see what the offspring would look like (T. blondi + GBB or something). Designer T's... the wave of the future! LOL

Succesful breeding is possible only if parent species are closely related (members of one genus).

 

[Patherophis]

Quick question, why are mammal hybrids usually sterile while tarantula (and possibly all arthropod) hybrids reproduce fine?

Their genome is less prone to incopatibilies causing postzygotic barriers.
But as You know, secondary postzygotic barriers (including hybrid sterility) are just inderect long term result of isolation and dont take part in the process itself.

 

[Nightshady]

It s made because of money ("I dont have suitable male for this female so I would use what I got, I need a lot of slings ...") and stupidy.

Well that is utterly stupid.

Succesful breeding is possible only if parent species are closely related (members of one genus).

Aw, too bad. That makes it less interesting.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Their genome is less prone to incopatibilies causing postzygotic barriers.
But as You know, secondary postzygotic barriers (including hybrid sterility) are just inderect long term result of isolation and dont take part in the process itself.

Wait, can you elaborate a little?

 

[cold blood]

I can see people trying hybridization to try and create new breeds. Has this been done before with any success?

You cannot create new "breeds" through hybridization. Not sure people are clear on the term to be honest reading here. Hybrids occur when 2 different species produce offspring....breeds are created by the reproduction of the same species that have differing characteristics...like dogs...all dogs, regardless of breed, are the same species...Canis lupus familiaris. When dealing with tarantulas, every single one is its own separate species, unlike the dog.

Hybridization doesn't create new anything, it rather ends the bloodlines of both of the species involved....forever.

If a species goes extinct in the wild and only remains in captivity, it will inevitably be domesticated

No, not even close.

Just because something lives in captivity, doesn't mean its domesticated.

A tarantula will remain a wild animal, just one in a cage...its instincts will not be altered...as we see, there are no differences between WC and CB ts. Take animals in zoos for instance....the vast majority of these remain wild animals, despite being bred in zoos for generations. Take one of those animals home and see how much "wild" is missing because they are in captivity.

 

[Nightshady]

You cannot create new "breeds" through hybridization. Not sure people are clear on the term to be honest reading here. Hybrids occur when 2 different species produce offspring....breeds are created by the reproduction of the same species that have differing characteristics...like dogs...all dogs, regardless of breed, are the same species...Canis lupus familiaris. When dealing with tarantulas, every single one is its own separate species, unlike the dog.

Hybridization doesn't create new anything, it rather ends the bloodlines of both of the species involved....forever.

Right, I totally misspoke. What I meant to say and failed to express correctly was if it was possible to breed like a T. blondi and a C. cyaneopubescens for example.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

A tarantula will remain a wild animal, just one in a cage...its instincts will not be altered...as we see, there are no differences between WC and CB ts. Take animals in zoos for instance....the vast majority of these remain wild animals, despite being bred in zoos for generations. Take one of those animals home and see how much "wild" is missing because they are in captivity.

Well, the captive breeding of tarantulas is quite recent. But if this goes on for many more years, who's to say that captive populations, with no predators, might not loose some behaviors?

And maybe them existing in captivity in of itself wont alter them, but being a species exclusive in captivity gives a lot more incentive to some people for specialized breeding.

 

[Patherophis]

Wait, can you elaborate a little?

Genome and gametogenesis of mammals is generaly quite "sensitive" and complicated, so it s more likely for incopatibilies causing both physiological and behavioral sterility to appear there, and mammals are known to have highest speed of evolution of postzygotic barriers.

 

[Venomgland]

Hybrids don't bother me. I've seen some beautiful ones posted elsewhere that I would buy up in a heartbeat!

Everyone says it ruined the snake hobby. I don't know. There are some pretty awesome ball pythons hybrids and some that I would never own, but its not like I couldn't go out and find a normal ball python or red tail boa. I could probably have one of each by the end the day if I wanted one. I think with some of the more common tarantulas it wouldn't be a big deal.

 

[Patherophis]

Hybrids don't bother me. I've seen some beautiful ones posted elsewhere that I would buy up in a heartbeat!

Everyone says it ruined the snake hobby. I don't know. There are some pretty awesome ball pythons hybrids and some that I would never own, but its not like I couldn't go out and find a normal ball python or red tail boa. I could probably have one of each by the end the day if I wanted one. I think with some of the more common tarantulas it wouldn't be a big deal.

That s the difference between reptile and tarantula hobby. In reptile hobby there are hybrids, but they are labled and kept separated from parent species. In tarantula hobby hybrids are not labled as hybrids and are bred with parent species until there are no pure members of parent species left.

 

[cold blood]

Well, the captive breeding of tarantulas is quite recent.

No, its absolutely not a recent development...people have been breeding them regularly for 40+ years.

but being a species exclusive in captivity gives a lot more incentive to some people for specialized breeding.

Only irresponsible people.

Hybrids don't bother me. I've seen some beautiful ones posted elsewhere that I would buy up in a heartbeat!

Everyone says it ruined the snake hobby. I don't know. There are some pretty awesome ball pythons hybrids and some that I would never o

Dude, this isn't the snake hobby, its 100% totally and completely unrelated.

 

[Anoplogaster]

There are some pretty awesome ball pythons hybrids and some that I would never own, but its not like I couldn't go out and find a normal ball python or red tail boa.

This was @cold blood ‘s point, though. Selectively bred Ball Pythons are still the same species. Hybridization would mean that you cross a Ball Python with a Red Tail Boa, for example.

 

[Venom1080]

These threads really show who's a responsible keeper and who's just in it for kicks.

Hybrid spiders are not useless things to be exterminated. They are tarantulas after all, and still fun to keep. However, normal, pure spiders are the same fun. Hybrids are nothing special and don't look any better than pures IME.

I love Hysterocrates. The most hybridized screwed up genus in the hobby. I keep 5 specimens.

 

[Anoplogaster]

Well, the captive breeding of tarantulas is quite recent. But if this goes on for many more years, who's to say that captive populations, with no predators, might not loose some behaviors?

This is actually a point I’ve made in the past, and still agree with. We can’t ignore the fact that evolution in the wild occurs due to selection pressures that limit survival/reproduction of certain traits. So in captivity, reproductive success is reliant on whether or not the keeper chooses to breed them. They live in a box. No predators. And a constant food source. Genetic mutations, even if they’re undesirable, will flourish in the hobby because their survival and reproductive success won’t be hindered by any selection pressures.

Just want to point out, though, that you are opening up a HUGE can of worms here with this thread. I can give you a short answer: Hybrids are bad for a hobby that values natural diversity. Science and conservation efforts should be viewed in a completely separate light from animal keeping hobbies, as the interests are VASTLY different.