A new perspective on hybrids: Please, hear me out

[CladeArthropoda]

I know your probably sick to death of hybrids by know, but please, hear me out. This is a new perspective not many people have thought of.

After spending a bit of time on the speculative evolution discord discussing some aspects of conservation (tigers in particular), something occurred to me. In conservation, we want to preserve every single taxonomically distinct entity and keep it pure. For example, we want to preserve all tiger subspecies and only breed tigers with other members of their respective subspecies. When a population of organisms is so low, only using members of that particular population may cause inbreeding, which can decrease genetic fitness is many ways. One way to avoid this, is to put some fresh genes in from another closely related population. However, a lot of people find this a bad thing as it makes "inpure" specimens that destroy the distinctness of the species/subspecies. Of course, this doesn't apply to just tigers. This can apply to any number of endangered organisms, including tarantulas. And as we all know, some tarantulas are quite endangered.

So let me ask you this. Would you rather have a healthy tarantula population with some genes from other species, or a "pure" population of highly inbred tarantulas?

 

[cold blood]

When a population of organisms is so low, only using members of that particular population may cause inbreeding, which can decrease genetic fitness is many ways. One way to avoid this, is to put some fresh genes in from another closely related population

What you are describing is a genetic bottleneck. It happens with many species and as long as the species has the conditions to survive, they often do and eventually flourish...humans have gone through several genetic bottlenecks, at one time there was an estimated 3-6 thousand humans on earth.

Given that our ts are captive and have all the means to survive a bottleneck, its just a bump, hybridization is the forever destruction of the bloodlines for an entire species...there's no going back and recovering that species, its gone, changed forever.

Don't hybridize

 

[CladeArthropoda]

What you are describing is a genetic bottleneck. It happens with many species and as long as the species has the conditions to survive, they often do and eventually flourish...humans have gone through several genetic bottlenecks, at one time there was an estimated 3-6 thousand humans on earth.

Given that our ts are captive and have all the means to survive a bottleneck, its just a bump, hybridization is the forever destruction of the bloodlines for an entire species...there's no going back and recovering that species, its gone, changed forever.

Don't hybridize

But here's the big million dollar questions. Is preserving every species pure absolutely necessary? As long as the population of tarantulas remains in the wild, does it really matter weather or not there is a little hybrid blood? And the definition of a species is much more blurry than people take for granted. Where do we draw the lines between species, genus, and subspecies?

This isn't even mentioning species that are not only endangered, but may also be extremely expensive or difficult to obtain or keep in captivity. Obtaining a sufficient number of a certain species may be too difficult or expensive, so using individuals from closely related species may help in this regard, as they might be easier to obtain or care for.

Also, hybridization occurs in the wild to some extant, so it's not like as if it's some freakish experiment made up by humans.

A somewhat hybridized tarantula population is better than a gone tarantula population.

 

[cold blood]

A somewhat hybridized tarantula population is better than a gone tarantula population.

We are in no way in jeopardy of losing species if we don't hybridize, that's not rational thought.

We can both keep them pure and readily available.

 

[Stormsky]

But here's the big million dollar questions. Is preserving every species pure absolutely necessary? As long as the population of tarantulas remains in the wild, does it really matter weather or not there is a little hybrid blood? And the definition of a species is much more blurry than people take for granted. Where do we draw the lines between species, genus, and subspecies?

This isn't even mentioning species that are not only endangered, but may also be extremely expensive or difficult to obtain or keep in captivity. Obtaining a sufficient number of a certain species may be too difficult or expensive, so using individuals from closely related species may help in this regard, as they might be easier to obtain or care for.

Also, hybridization occurs in the wild to some extant, so it's not like as if it's some freakish experiment made up by humans.

A somewhat hybridized tarantula population is better than a gone tarantula population.

It matters a lot. Once you hybridize, it can no longer be considered a part of either species and must be labelled as a hybrid, otherwise anyone who buys them is getting something that isn't what they wanted. This especially applies to the expensive species. Imagine paying for a Lamborghini and instead they give you a Camaro.
Additionally if they aren't sold labeled as hybrids, anyone who receives one may breed it thinking it is whatever they bought it as and thus pollute the population further.

I understand your point of view and if it happens in the wild, that's fine, but forcing it in captivity is all around a terrible idea and completely unnecessary.

 

[Venom1080]

No. Besides, there's already plenty of species and whole genera ruined by hybrids.

I'm not catching Ts from India and Venezuela and bringing them home. I'm buying them online. So yes, it absolutely matters that they're pure, or at least extremely close.

I'd go as far to get papers and proof of a a spiders locality before breeding. I'd love for that to become commonplace. Countries close down exports, what we have when they do is all we have to keep. And keeping that pure should be every hobbyists goal.

I don't want a hobby where im buying Poecilotheria sp. Black/white.

 

[cold blood]

I understand your point of view and if it happens in the wild,

I think a lot of people really over-estimate the frequency of such things in the wild. Most species have specific ranges, they have these because there are generally ecological boundaries that prevent them from going further...mountain ranges, rivers, etc. On top of that, tarantulas aren't long range roamers either, often living in clustered groups in certain areas.

An example of this would be the B. vagans living in that orange grove in Florida....been there for some 40 years, yet still haven't ventured from that one area of that orchard....this type of lifestyle actually leads to an even lesser chance of hybridization even in these over-lap zones.

Areas of over-lap are generally very small (if they exist at all), and even then, hybridization remains very uncommon in the wild.

 

[Patherophis]

I think that others have already point to main resons why not to hybridize, so there are just few things I would like to add:
- The whole idea is wrong, hybridization with another species won't create healthy captive population with high genetic diversity. Genetic diversity works in much complicated way, enormous rate of hybridization would be necessary to significantlly increse number and proportion of haplotypes an allels. And the the most important thing, assuming healthy hybrids with high fitness is cardinal mistake, outbreeding can have negative impact even within species, with interspecies breeding icompatibilities and other problems come into game. Simple said, it is much more likely to get "unhealthy" hybrids with lowered fitness than the opposite.
- Unlike mammals, inverts are generaly very resistant to negative effects of inbreeding, so it is not the main problem we are facing in this field now.

A somewhat hybridized tarantula population is better than a gone tarantula population.

It is the same. You cannot hybridize something to protect it, because from that moment there is nothing to protect.

And the definition of a species is much more blurry than people take for granted. Where do we draw the lines between species, genus, and subspecies?

This is one of reasons why we should not hybridize, no why we should. In ideal world, only pure local populations would be bred in captivity.

This isn't even mentioning species that are not only endangered, but may also be extremely expensive or difficult to obtain or keep in captivity. Obtaining a sufficient number of a certain species may be too difficult or expensive, so using individuals from closely related species may help in this regard, as they might be easier to obtain or care for.

Like for examle when Poecilotheria metallica was rare some years ago, we should have mixed it with some other Poecilotheria to increase numbers ??? Well, maybe some of slings would have been a bit bluish ...

btw nice reading on tigers: https://www.luo-lab.org/publications/Tigers-of-the-World-Chap3-Genetics.pdf

 

[basin79]

Hybrids?

 

[CladeArthropoda]

First of all, I'm not talking about hybrids in the hoby. I'm talking about conservation.

Unlike mammals, inverts are generaly very resistant to negative effects of inbreeding, so it is not the main problem we are facing in this field now.

Proof?

And your guys' notion of "Its hybrid so it's automatically useless and worthless and evil" is, frank to say, ridiculous. Species in many different groups of organisms (likely including spiders) only exist as they BECAUSE of some hybridization. And plus, how can we possibly keep a species pure if we aren't even fully sure what a species is? Drawing the line between a species, genus and subspecies is quite difficult, and we all know that tarantulas are quite the taxonomic mess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clymene_dolphin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonicera_fly

Here are some examples of animal species who got that way because of hybridization.

I'm not saying we should actively hybridize at every opportunity. However, we should also recognize that just because a population has some hybrids doesn't automatically mean that it's evil and worthless.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Well guys, what do you think? The fact that many species are results of hybridization and the definition of species in of itself is largely arbitrary surely implies some things about all this.

 

[Patherophis]

First of all, I'm not talking about hybrids in the hoby. I'm talking about conservation.

Proof?

And your guys' notion of "Its hybrid so it's automatically useless and worthless and evil" is, frank to say, ridiculous. Species in many different groups of organisms (likely including spiders) only exist as they BECAUSE of some hybridization. And plus, how can we possibly keep a species pure if we aren't even fully sure what a species is? Drawing the line between a species, genus and subspecies is quite difficult, and we all know that tarantulas are quite the taxonomic mess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clymene_dolphin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonicera_fly

Here are some examples of animal species who got that way because of hybridization.

I'm not saying we should actively hybridize at every opportunity. However, we should also recognize that just because a population has some hybrids doesn't automatically mean that it's evil and worthless.

From conservation point of wiew it is even more crucial to keep taxons pure.

I am aware that there are species that are results of natural hybridization, but please don't compare natural hybridization with one done by human. Aim of consersation is to conserve taxons created by nature, not to create new ones.

We can agree what species is in more than 90 % of cases (most of rest belongs to young complexes of newly speciated/speciating species), and if not sure that something belongs to one species/subspecies do not breed it together but keep it separated by localities.

Intentional hybrization is not solution for inbreeding and loss of genetic diversity, it is just creating of new problems. Important topic in conservation genetics is how to reduce and prevent hybridization and fight its consequences, and there are reasons for it.

Yes, population with some hybrization is not worthles, it can be very precious - in case it is the only population left. But it is far from desired situation and deffinitely not the situation that should be caused intentionaly.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Well that brings another point. So what some species become a little less "pure"? What effects would it have in the long run? This also ties in with the fact that extinction is a totally natural phenomenon and trying to stop it entirely is only delaying the inevitable while wasting tons of money resources. Conservation is good, but we can't everything.

Not saying hybrids are a super good thing (surprise surprise, it's not), but our super, rage filled shouts and rants at the mere mention of the word is an overreaction.

 

[Patherophis]

Depends on much things, like ammounth of hybridization, ecology of interbred species, divergence time .. in long term it can have no visible effects or it can cause that that specie to extinct ...

Extinction is natural phenomenon, but as with hybridization we shouldn't overestomate its natural rate. Almost all extintions nowadays are not natural but are results of human activies, so it's our duty to do what we can against them.

It's not a priori overreacting to that word, it is because a of lot bad experience people here have with hybrids.

 

[JoshDM020]

I didnt see any "super, rage filled shouts and rants" anywhere. You wanted a discussion and didnt like what you heard, so youre implying a negative tone where there was none.

Natural hybrids: Cool. Whatever. New species, i guess.
Man made hybrids: Not protecting anything. The original species will still go extinct just as soon, if not faster.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

Extinction is natural phenomenon, but as with hybridization we shouldn't overestomate its natural rate. Almost all extintions nowadays are not natural but are results of human activies, so it's our duty to do what we can against them.

That might not actually be true. All the extinctions that we notice are human cased, but there are probably may natural extinctions of small creatures going on right under our noses.

It's not a priori overreacting to that word, it is because a of lot bad experience people here have with hybrids.

But people seem to way overestimate the problems they pose.

 

[CladeArthropoda]

I didnt see any "super, rage filled shouts and rants" anywhere. You wanted a discussion and didnt like what you heard, so youre implying a negative tone where there was none.

I didn't mean here in particular. I mean in general.

Look at these comments for example

Man made hybrids: Not protecting anything. The original species will still go extinct just as soon, if not faster.

How though? As long as there is a functioning population of tarantulas, it shouldn't matter weather or not the species are "pure".

 

[EulersK]

This also ties in with the fact that extinction is a totally natural phenomenon and trying to stop it entirely is only delaying the inevitable while wasting tons of money resources. Conservation is good, but we can't everything.

I'm absolutely with you on this one. At the end of the day, these are bugs. Spending that much money to conserve them in the wild is an insane misappropriation of funds. However, these are not tigers or bears. Hundreds of specimens can be kept in a closet, and we've largely perfected captive breeding. Some species that are critically endangered in the wild are very common in the hobby - it's likely that they'll be fully extinct in the wild within our lifetime. Examples would be P. metallica (source) and P. hanumavilasumica (source). While there is no reasonable chance of bringing their population back to the wild, there is something to be said about preserving an animal the way it naturally evolved considering we're the reason for their extinction.

 

[Patherophis]

I didn't mean here in particular. I mean in general.

Look at these comments for example

How though? As long as there is a functioning population of tarantulas, it shouldn't matter weather or not the species are "pure".

That comments are absolutely apropriate. Sorry byt I think that You much underestimate the problems they pose.

 

[Nightshady]

Why do you want to hybridize... just to see what you can produce, or for some conservation effort?

Are T hybrids sterile, or can they reproduce?