3-4" obt female breedable?

[JohnDapiaoen]

Been over that for a while to be honest. No need to think I hold grudges; otherwise, you'd have been blocked a while ago. We've had conflicting ideas way before that. You probably think, I'm on here looking for ways to denounce what you say, but totally the opposite; I joined these forums to learn and see what's on people's minds concerning a common subject of tarantulas and other arachnids. Thing is, I can't simply read and accept others thoughts, humans shouldn't work that way. Ideas and viewpoints I read here have have to go through the common scientific questions of "why" and from then on is my own thoughts and views on the subject from which I may share. If I were to accept the idea because Anastasia said so then I'm not really doing much thinking for myself there, am I?

-JohnD.

 

[Poec54]

Thing is, I can't simply read and accept others thoughts, humans shouldn't work that way.

Ideas and viewpoints I read here have have to go through the common scientific questions of "why" and from then on is my own thoughts and views on the subject from which I may share.

If I were to accept the idea because Anastasia said so then I'm not really doing much thinking for myself there, am I?

That's called learning: benefitting from the experience of others so that you don't have to make the same mistakes yourself. I kind of doubt you question everything in your life from a scientific perspective, otherwise you wouldn't have time for much else. So you don't 'accept' what anyone says about anything, and have to reinvent-the-wheel to prove everything to yourself? I imagine there are many things you accept without scientific analysis (Do you own a car? Do you personally know that all the principles used in it's operation are valid, or do you just 'accept others thoughts'? That's a pretty risky thing to be driving around in if you haven't answered the "common scientific questions of 'why'?" There's a lot of blind faith involved in even being a passenger in a car at freeway speeds. And flying in plane? The assumptions made there are staggering). I suspect there may be a lot of picking and choosing as to when you decide when to do scientific analysis and when not. Possibly influenced by what's convenient. You can blow off what anyone says here, after all they're just a bunch of bug collectors. But then, you might be able to benefit from what they've learned and avoid the mistakes they've made. That's how you really advance in the hobby. If want to slow things down to ponder the scientific merit of everything said here and assume it's invalid until your scientific analysis determines otherwise, go for it.

 

[pyro fiend]

well im not jumping on this about you two. but i do have my own quarrel here

yes i may have been comparing a rodent to an arachnid, both of which are nearly nothing alike..i personally dont exactly think a female bred young will die young. i have many animals who bred once they hit the bear minimum age/weight/size and have lived for many many moons. and no ill health. but what i was refering to is from what iv personally observed with my breedings [i would have mentioned it about beta fish and guppies/platties but i figured this would cause more fighting] is if a female breeds when they are young, the amount of young IS smaller. as well as iv never seen a super young female of any sp have a perfectly healthy litter/sack/clutch etc and the young grow to a normal size. granted i have never bred a T im going off of breeding reports iv seen...

so if i have personally bred fish, lizards, geckos, many sp of snakes and birds. that young female has small babies and which even when given perfect conditions to live.as i said foster moms for rats, fully matured moms who have had many litters helping take care of the babies as their own so the diet is known to be as healthy as it should be for healthy young [iv even had moms pop 1 and 2 days apart and switched the litters or interchanged them and got same results] and if iv noticed this in such a wide variety of species. from my rodents i breed now, to my birds of paradise i bred before, and even bearded dragons.. is it not possible to be the same in arachnids?? now we may just be keepers and not scientist but i think we might be onto something..

but also how offen do you think a mm finds a super young female? lets say a 3.5 female for example, she may be able to have those babies buy how many males will find her? how many are realy going to be successful? not to mention we cant prove 100% a females viability of the eggs completely depending apon a females size/age

 

[JohnDapiaoen]

That's called learning: benefitting from the experience of others so that you don't have to make the same mistakes yourself. I kind of doubt you question everything in your life from a scientific perspective, otherwise you wouldn't have time for much else. So you don't 'accept' what anyone says about anything, and have to reinvent-the-wheel to prove everything to yourself? I imagine there are many things you accept without scientific analysis (Do you own a car? Do you personally know that all the principles used in it's operation are valid, or do you just 'accept others thoughts'? That's a pretty risky thing to be driving around in if you haven't answered the "common scientific questions of 'why'?" There's a lot of blind faith involved in even being a passenger in a car at freeway speeds. And flying in plane? The assumptions made there are staggering). I suspect there may be a lot of picking and choosing as to when you decide when to do scientific analysis and when not. Possibly influenced by what's convenient. You can blow off what anyone says here, after all they're just a bunch of bug collectors. But then, you might be able to benefit from what they've learned and avoid the mistakes they've made. That's how you really advance in the hobby. If want to slow things down to ponder the scientific merit of everything said here and assume it's invalid until your scientific analysis determines otherwise, go for it.

Looks like you didn't pay close attention to what I was saying--Had I an interest in cars then you can bet I would be in a car parts forum to study every bit of info I can get, and if someone makes a blunt claim then you can also bet I'll be questioning it. You actually can't be moving forward by accepting someone's claims all willy-nilly, ever heard of the dark ages? Someone here says "spiders can fly" end of story? People here are interested in the spider, want to know, how that claim came about, and does the explanation make sense. I never blow off what anyone says, anyone here and even off this forum has the potential to discover something new, but there is a thick line between assumptions and proven evidence.

well im not jumping on this about you two. but i do have my own quarrel here

yes i may have been comparing a rodent to an arachnid, both of which are nearly nothing alike..i personally dont exactly think a female bred young will die young. i have many animals who bred once they hit the bear minimum age/weight/size and have lived for many many moons. and no ill health. but what i was refering to is from what iv personally observed with my breedings [i would have mentioned it about beta fish and guppies/platties but i figured this would cause more fighting] is if a female breeds when they are young, the amount of young IS smaller. as well as iv never seen a super young female of any sp have a perfectly healthy litter/sack/clutch etc and the young grow to a normal size. granted i have never bred a T im going off of breeding reports iv seen...

so if i have personally bred fish, lizards, geckos, many sp of snakes and birds. that young female has small babies and which even when given perfect conditions to live.as i said foster moms for rats, fully matured moms who have had many litters helping take care of the babies as their own so the diet is known to be as healthy as it should be for healthy young [iv even had moms pop 1 and 2 days apart and switched the litters or interchanged them and got same results] and if iv noticed this in such a wide variety of species. from my rodents i breed now, to my birds of paradise i bred before, and even bearded dragons.. is it not possible to be the same in arachnids?? now we may just be keepers and not scientist but i think we might be onto something..

but also how offen do you think a mm finds a super young female? lets say a 3.5 female for example, she may be able to have those babies buy how many males will find her? how many are realy going to be successful? not to mention we cant prove 100% a females viability of the eggs completely depending apon a females size/age

Go ahead and chase your idea down then. Don't forget I'm only here posting on this thread because of the lack of evidence. Perhaps a record of young true spiders or other arachnids having offspring with ill affects for having a young mother would sound convincing. But vertebrae are litterally in a group all their own and can't be used much for invertebrates.

-JohnD.

 

[Poec54]

so if i have personally bred fish, lizards, geckos, many sp of snakes and birds. that young female has small babies and which even when given perfect conditions to live.as i said foster moms for rats, fully matured moms who have had many litters helping take care of the babies as their own so the diet is known to be as healthy as it should be for healthy young [iv even had moms pop 1 and 2 days apart and switched the litters or interchanged them and got same results] and if iv noticed this in such a wide variety of species. from my rodents i breed now, to my birds of paradise i bred before, and even bearded dragons.. is it not possible to be the same in arachnids?? now we may just be keepers and not scientist but i think we might be onto something.

The professor is going to argue about this regardless, don't take it personally. I'm not seeing a lot of scientific analysis in spending 'a lot money' for MM to pair up with an 18 month old female.

---------- Post added 09-24-2014 at 10:07 AM ----------

Had I an interest in cars then you can bet I would be in a car parts forum to study every bit of info I can get.

The car analogy had nothing to do with having an interest in them, it was about personal safety riding in one and how well that's been researched.

 

[JohnDapiaoen]

The professor is going to argue about this regardless, don't take it personally. I'm not seeing a lot of scientific analysis in spending 'a lot money' for MM to pair up with an 18 month old female.

I'm sorry, I had to chuckle at this. Apart from the cost comment, I ended up pairing them to analyze if the female would produce a viable sac, nothing else to it. I'll let you in on a little secret of mine subfuscas aren't the only Poecilotheria I'm testing this on. Can't see any harm testing out your theory. Oh and another apology for trying to think like a professor would. Those guys are not people we should strive to be.

-JohnD.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

[/COLOR]

She is probably more like 4 1/2" and her spermathecae was nice and dark on the last molt. I think she'll do just fine. My concern was more that she may be due to molt and the pairing will be a wasted effort. No harm in pairing her, just a good chance that she'll shed the sperm away and you'll have to pair her again.

Yes mmolt is just as dark as my larger Ts. Definitely Female 100% although my Bigger Ts Phamphos, Lp's & pokies make the OBT look small.
Are OBts just less bulky?

---------- Post added 10-06-2014 at 12:26 AM ----------

If she's over four inches yes, but if she's under I would say no. P murinus top out at 5.5 inches, but I've seen some specimens get over 6 inches.

She is 4.1-4.5" inches first measurement was way off.
Another molt would probably be 5" inches.
Although sexed female she is not near as bulky as either of my G rosea, is this genus just smaller bodied?

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Like the market isn't already glutted with P murinus? What's the hurry? What are you planning on doing with the slings? A lot of dealers don't want more than they already have. 3" is ridiculous to try to breed one. She's stilling putting her resources into growing herself. They may be sexually mature at 4", but I'd wait until they hit 4.5 or 5" so that their body isn't stressed as much. Do you want you 10 year old daughter having a baby?

I actually have a bigger female 4.5" after molt. Maybe I will wait til this smaller one is mature in a year, Thanks!

Can You leave MM in overnight? I take him out just for safety so he isnt a meal.

 

[Poec54]

I actually have a bigger female 4.5" after molt. Maybe I will wait til this smaller one is mature in a year, Thanks!

Can You leave MM in overnight? I take him out just for safety so he isnt a meal.

With the vast majority of species, if they're going to breed, it'll happen within 20-30 minutes, often less. The male picks up on her scent, usually from walking on the silk, and starts drumming and/or vibrating. She'll respond by tapping her front legs. If she doesn't respond to repeated male overtures, then she isn't in the mood, usually either too young, too old, or approaching a molt. Sometimes a female may respond by coming out and approaching the male with the intent of attacking him. Other times they're determined to totally ignore him.

In captivity they molt and mature based on our temps and feeding schedules, which may be very different than what they have in the wild. Males and females may then be on different cycles because of that and not ne in synch.

Leaving a male in a female's cage overnight is usually a death sentence for him, and there's no guarantee they'll have mated. It's bets to supervise (with a catch cup and an unsharpened pencil) and take him out when they've mated, or when it's obvious they're not going to mate. Occasionally the male is killed as soon as he pulls his palps out, and it happens so fast there's nothing you can do about it. In those cases the female typically gives him a bear hug and sinks her fangs thru his carapace.

The only species I've left the male in overnight with is Poecs and Lampropelma, and probably will with Cyriopagopus too. Any other is probably pointless, and he'd be killed in an hour or less. There's a theory that females should eat the male to get a good meal. That's a very shortsighted, and sometimes costly plan. Females frequently molt after mating (instead of laying eggs), and if you let her kill the male, you probably don't have another one for her to mate with. Instead of ensuring a sac, that approach can guarantee that you DON"T get one. There are better things to feed a female besides another spider.

There are people who want a 2nd or 3rd pairing to ensure a sac, but those often end in the male's death. All of the sacs I've gotten have been with one pairing.

 

[DVMT]

Just my 2 cents here, but I gotta agree with Poec on one aspect of this proposal. Why flood the market with more murinus slings? Everyone has them, plenty of them.....so whats the point of breeding her now? And what is the OP going to do if her female does double clutch? Cull the sack? Both sacks? Regardless of the toll it will take on her body, it isn't necessary. Again, just my 2 cents.

Damon

 

[SuzukiSwift]

I would say she is breedable but you shouldn't breed her in my opinion. I once bred a 3.5" a.avic and she actually successfully dropped a sac, however none of the eggs made it (they may not have even been fertilized properly) and it was very hard on my poor baby, I feel terrible about doing it now. Best to wait until they are larger, anything 4.5" and over would be much better

Also as others have said the hobby doesn't need any more p.murinus slings lol I dont know about there but here you can buy them for the equivalent of 2 bucks they are so common. No rush ae, breeding is a fascinating experience but you'll get better results and feel better about it if you breed a T that is more viable

 

[cold blood]

Here's the obvious thing to me regarding breeding small females, aside from there already being too many obt in the first place (there was just a guy selling them for $2.50 ea, begging to get rid of them), its the known fact that the younger a specimen is, the shorter time it will have between molts, thereby heartily increasing the chances that it will molt prior to actually laying a sac. The older a specimen is, the longer that timeframe betwixt molts will be, and therefore automatically increasing the chances of success. Heck sometimes the younger ones will surprise you with a very quick molt, something that almost never happens to a healthy specimen once its fully grown.

 

[gobey]

Here's the obvious thing to me regarding breeding small females, aside from there already being too many (there was just a guy selling them for $2.50 ea, begging to get rid of them), its the known fact that the younger a specimen is, the shorter time it will have between molts, thereby heartily increasing the chances that it will molt prior to actually laying a sac. The older a specimen is, the longer that timeframe betwixt molts will be, and therefore automatically increasing the chances of success. Heck sometimes the younger ones will surprise you with a very quick molt, something that almost never happens to a healthy specimen once its fully grown.

This appears to be the case with my friend and mine's breeding project. We've decided to ditch the project for now at least. We'll see if she molts. But it looks doubtful she lays a sac. She was quite aggressive toward our male on a second attempt. And indeed the market is saturated.
Not to mention our male is always in hiding and we don't know how much longer he is for this world. He doesn't take kindly to being proed from his hide.

I have 2 OBT slings he can sell at his shop within a year should they grow anyways. I'm going to keep the female. She's too good a specimen to pass up.

This was an educational experience for both of us and an interesting thing to consider if you're interested in breeding this species.

 

[Poec54]

Here's the obvious thing to me regarding breeding small females...is the known fact that the younger a specimen is, the shorter time it will have between molts, thereby heartily increasing the chances that it will molt prior to actually laying a sac.

Very good point. She's molting more than once a year, maybe once every 6-9 months, and her body's putting resources into growth. Producing a sac at that point diverts stored food reserves, and you may well end up both slowing her growth down, and getting a small sac that goes bad, and that's IF she doesn't molt first. In spite of anyone's 'analysis' of trying this, logic tells you that a young spider only has so many resources stored up, and she can't do justice simultaneously to two competing major resource drains with a small body. One or both are going to suffer. That's why full-size females can produce bigger sacs with higher survival rates: bigger body, more resources, and growth has slowed down: they're ready to produce sacs that have a high rate of perpetuating the species. Females are adults for 8 to 20 years, why be in a crazy rush to breed a small spider? I've yet to hear anyone give a good reason for doing this, other then they happen to have a mature male, and that's because either because he matured sooner than expected, or because they jumped the gun and bought him too soon. Poor planning isn't a valid justification.

 

[skippydude]

This appears to be the case with my friend and mine's breeding project. We've decided to ditch the project for now at least. We'll see if she molts. But it looks doubtful she lays a sac. She was quite aggressive toward our male on a second attempt. And indeed the market is saturated.
Not to mention our male is always in hiding and we don't know how much longer he is for this world. He doesn't take kindly to being proed from his hide.

I have 2 OBT slings he can sell at his shop within a year should they grow anyways. I'm going to keep the female. She's too good a specimen to pass up.

This was an educational experience for both of us and an interesting thing to consider if you're interested in breeding this species.

When a female acts aggressive towards the male on a second pairing attempt, it's a pretty good indicator that she is gravid and no longer needs him for breeding purposes. She may not refuse his company for dinner though

 

[Poec54]

When a female acts aggressive towards the male on a second pairing attempt, it's a pretty good indicator that she is gravid and no longer needs him for breeding purposes. She may not refuse his company for dinner though

Right, so why try to pair her up a second and third time? Sacrificing males like that can be shooting yourself in the foot. I bought a 7" Lampropelma violaceopes female and had a juvenile male mature. Paired them up in the fall and several months later the female molted. But instead of leaving him in for days or weeks to be eaten, I took him out after one night. I paired the two of them up again (one night only), and in the spring she laid a large sac, and a second large sac in the summer, ALL from that one pairing. Had I let her kill him the first go around, I'd have had no slings at all. Obviously there was enough sperm to fertilize the eggs from both sacs (with no bad eggs). From my perspective, the people that insist on multiple pairings are acting like nervous old ladies, and blowing thru males. I question whether that results in anything more than they would have gotten with one pairing.

 

[JohnDapiaoen]

Hey looks like this thread's still alive!

Anywho, since I get the feeling I'm being hinted here I should reply. "Why flood the market?", why not? this hobby is growing, and there is no harm in breeding T's. Only thing I can think of is a breeder can't sell them as fast, well that's supply and demand, the price will go way down. Is it a bad thing? for collectors I would guess that's something positive.

I touched on the subject of breeding young females before and like before it's getting the same repetitive rebuttals so I won't say more unless someone comes up with a better or newer points to make.

-JohnD.

 

[jigalojey]

Dude I highly doubt anything under 4" is even breedable and if it is have fun with the tiny sac I guess, she will probably molt it anyway.

 

[gobey]

When a female acts aggressive towards the male on a second pairing attempt, it's a pretty good indicator that she is gravid and no longer needs him for breeding purposes. She may not refuse his company for dinner though

Ah yeah we discussed this though buddy! Your girl is acting funny. The only aggressive behavior we've ever even seen from her was towards him when he was reintroduced. Other than that she's an orange calm thing so far.

What was confusing was for a while she was webbing up the top of this fake plant like mad and refused to eat. So we figured maybe pre molt. That plus her "piss off" attitude towards his male. But she abandoned that project, is now settled into a rock cave, hides half inside, comes out for strolls, and eats again.

So..... Idk.... She didn't get the memo about being easy to breed. Time will tell. If there are slings. She goes away to him for babysitting and he gets the slings.... I don't want any lol. If not. My T

Right, so why try to pair her up a second and third time? Sacrificing males like that can be shooting yourself in the foot. I bought a 7" Lampropelma violaceopes female and had a juvenile male mature. Paired them up in the fall and several months later the female molted. But instead of leaving him in for days or weeks to be eaten, I took him out after one night. I paired the two of them up again (one night only), and in the spring she laid a large sac, and a second large sac in the summer, ALL from that one pairing. Had I let her kill him the first go around, I'd have had no slings at all. Obviously there was enough sperm to fertilize the eggs from both sacs (with no bad eggs). From my perspective, the people that insist on multiple pairings are acting like nervous old ladies, and blowing thru males. I question whether that results in anything more than they would have gotten with one pairing.

Well I was just the assistant. But it was a learning experience for my friend too. He only ever bred Grammostolas before. Let me tell you after getting the male in and out the 2nd time that was also a factor in deciding this was a project not worth continuing. The male already acts like he's on PCP ready to fight everything that disturbs him. And fetching him from the thunder slapping female was quite a sight.

Honestly compared to my little NW dwarf MM who's wandering and wouldn't stop drumming, the MM OBT seems to want to be left alone in his hide to die.

He looks a little more yellow than orange lately too. Idk if that's a bad sign.

 

[skippydude]

Ah yeah we discussed this though buddy! Your girl is acting funny. The only aggressive behavior we've ever even seen from her was towards him when he was reintroduced. Other than that she's an orange calm thing so far.

What was confusing was for a while she was webbing up the top of this fake plant like mad and refused to eat. So we figured maybe pre molt. That plus her "piss off" attitude towards his male. But she abandoned that project, is now settled into a rock cave, hides half inside, comes out for strolls, and eats again.

So..... Idk.... She didn't get the memo about being easy to breed. Time will tell. If there are slings. She goes away to him for babysitting and he gets the slings.... I don't want any lol. If not. My T



Well I was just the assistant. But it was a learning experience for my friend too. He only ever bred Grammostolas before. Let me tell you after getting the male in and out the 2nd time that was also a factor in deciding this was a project not worth continuing. The male already acts like he's on PCP ready to fight everything that disturbs him. And fetching him from the thunder slapping female was quite a sight.

Honestly compared to my little NW dwarf MM who's wandering and wouldn't stop drumming, the MM OBT seems to want to be left alone in his hide to die.

He looks a little more yellow than orange lately too. Idk if that's a bad sign.

OBTs are prolific webbers so the weird webbing behavior doesn't mean anything special
OBTs are very reclusive I have 4 adults and only one eats in front of me. The other three get fed and the roaches are gone by the next morning.