Whats so bad about hybrids?

[David Burns]

So, if you have, what was sold to you as, an A.avic/H.gigas/H.minax (these species are just a few of many possibilities) and you want to breed it. Is the male you find to mate with her the same species?

Is the female you have, the species you think it is?

How do you know they are not Hybrids already?

If you are truly adamant about not breeding Hybrids, You should have both parents' species identified by a pro.

 

[josh_cloud]

i truly think that we need to form an organization where the species are standardized and bloodlines are true. that way we can have registered purebreeds or opt for the "mutt"

 

[Stylopidae]

Besides spelling cambridgei wrong?

And I think we should wait before saying irminia and cambridgei can successfully hybridize, far as I know, it hasn't created living offspring yet.

-Sean

I've seen a few definite hybrids between the two. Don't know if they can reproduce, though. They're pretty closely related, so it wouldn't surprise me.

The fact that nobody's caught the glaring, obvious huge mistake in that post proves that nobody who has seen this thread knows enough about population genetics to know how species are described and what the term really means...otherwise they'd have called me on the humongous difference between the two situations because it's something that even someone with a rudimentary knowledge of population genetics should have caught.

Thus, my point has been proven. I win.

 

[Fenrir]

So you flaunt your intelligence in the face of those who dont know better? I personally dont have alot of knowledge on the true definition of a species, atleast ive never seen it described in detail. Are you referring to that two species cannot produce viable offspring and if they could then the taxonomists made a mistake? Or that it could be the same species merely separated by a landmass and then it is referred to as a locality, which mixing localities is not hybridizing by the true sense of the word as it is the same species but is not natural from a purists standpoint.

 

[Merfolk]

The male irminia already looks like cambridgei... so I'm pretty much sure a cross between those species will give something green with perhaps a bit of black.

Useless combination. Without being dead set against hybridation, I think that those occuring between look alike species is even more useless.

 

[PhormictopusMan]

The fact that nobody's caught the glaring, obvious huge mistake in that post proves that nobody who has seen this thread knows enough about population genetics to know how species are described and what the term really means...otherwise they'd have called me on the humongous difference between the two situations because it's something that even someone with a rudimentary knowledge of population genetics should have caught.

I can't find it, but I'm a History and Lit guy--Science by hobby only. I'm intrigued though--What was the mistake?

--Chris

 

[butch4skin]

I've seen a few definite hybrids between the two. Don't know if they can reproduce, though. They're pretty closely related, so it wouldn't surprise me.

The fact that nobody's caught the glaring, obvious huge mistake in that post proves that nobody who has seen this thread knows enough about population genetics to know how species are described and what the term really means...otherwise they'd have called me on the humongous difference between the two situations because it's something that even someone with a rudimentary knowledge of population genetics should have caught.

Thus, my point has been proven. I win.

I'm not sure what your glaring mistake was, and I profess to know next to nothing about population genetics. I do know, though, that orchids can be cultured asexually, and spiders cannot(at least, not in a technologically and economically feasable way to the hobbyist), making the fact that some orchid species have been hybridized into extinction even more ridiculous.

 

[Stylopidae]

So you flaunt your intelligence in the face of those who dont know better? I personally dont have alot of knowledge on the true definition of a species, atleast ive never seen it described in detail. Are you referring to that two species cannot produce viable offspring and if they could then the taxonomists made a mistake? Or that it could be the same species merely separated by a landmass and then it is referred to as a locality, which mixing localities is not hybridizing by the true sense of the word as it is the same species but is not natural from a purists standpoint.

Nope...I'm flaunting my knowledge and being an all-around jerk to make a point. If you're going to be hybridizing, you need to know a little bit about the phylogeny of the spiders in question and a little about population genetics, isolation, gene flow, genetic drift and the circumstances that create speciation events. My point is that those advocating hybridizing don't care enough to research those things. Because they don't care to research those things, they don't care to research the consequences of hybridizing in other hobbies.

True, some hybridization is natural in closely related species that have overlapping ranges. However, these usually dilute back into the parent populations and in most cases, these are freak occurrances because of ecological factors such as the competitive exclusion principal or other behavioral factors.

There is more than one way to describe a species. The biological concept is the strictest (and generally the best), however many biologists take into account how genetically isolated a species is.

I'm not sure what your glaring mistake was, and I profess to know next to nothing about population genetics. I do know, though, that orchids can be cultured asexually, and spiders cannot(at least, not in a technologically and economically feasable way to the hobbyist), making the fact that some orchid species have been hybridized into extinction even more ridiculous.

Found the original essay...and I did get my facts wrong.

http://www.macatawa.org/~oias/environm.htm

However, since spiders cannot be cultured asexually my hypothetical point still stands.

I can't find it, but I'm a History and Lit guy--Science by hobby only. I'm intrigued though--What was the mistake?

--Chris

Oh...this is just too fun.

What's a population?

 

[Fenrir]

Your argument is essentially 'becuz we cin lolololoololol!!!11!!!!1!!!1!' and that's a crappy argument, plain and simple. Look at the consequences from other animal related hobbies and you'll see that.

My arguement?! You obviously have not read my previous posts, i am firmly against hybridizing of any kind and do not approve of mixing localities.

Simple answer is dont hybridize. Reasons are... Should you hybridize and sell off your stock w/o labeling and that hybrid is by some crazy act fertile then GG bloodline. Hybridizing is fine if you keep the offspring and never sell them. Even if you label them as AxB etc. then later down the road when some person new to Ts buys one and forgets what it is, then breeds it with what looks like the closest species then sells it off as that species. This has happened in many a pet trade. Then there is the purist standpoint which is not a petty thing. What happens when a species goes extinct in the wild but is everywhere in captivity, but oh wait some moron screwed up the bloodlines and now we have hybrids and say bye bye to the species. Species do not come back when they go extinct thats it, this may not be a big deal with Ts but look at Mantellas and Dart Frogs, chytrid is wiping them out FAST. We may possibly have a cure for it and can release captive specimens back into their native habitat if the bloodlines are pure. All in all do your research on hybrids before you even say an ignorant thing like "whats so bad about hybrids".

And thats my proof.

 

[Stylopidae]

My arguement?! You obviously have not read my previous posts, i am firmly against hybridizing of any kind and do not approve of mixing localities.



And thats my proof.

I misunderstood your post. I'm sorry about that. I'll go back, re-read and formulate another more appropriate reply.

 

[Stylopidae]

My arguement?! You obviously have not read my previous posts, i am firmly against hybridizing of any kind and do not approve of mixing localities.



And thats my proof.

I think you and I are on the same page.

I had to stop a petstore from selling a Brachypelma auratum as a B. smithi awhile back.

:?

No idea how that happened.

 

[Fenrir]

I think reading peoples posts on hybridizing dulls the mind .

 

[Frédérick]

that's right, i think that we can get a pretty good picture out of this...DO NOT HYBRIDIZE! Not being an obscurantist here, it's normal to be curious its our nature and im not the one who will say "close this thread!", but i think its not worth the risk of messing all the bloodlines just for "fun" or curiosity. i think finally everyone will agree on one point, this would SUCK!

 

[ctsoth]

I think this thread has been pretty objective and apart from the few people who screamed thread closure or who are just saying things are "stupid" without really applying any valid arguments, I think that it is a good one. Both sides are being represented in a clear and adult manner. I haven't bothered to do a search, and I don't care to. This is the current community. I would bet that most likely from the way things sound, they were just flame wars and in which case they were failed threads. I am not a proponent for crossbreeding, however I am an aponent for not allowing someone to have clear information without being afraid that a riot will ensue. Besides, someone might actually learn something and perhaps even have an opinion change. Who knows, that's the beuty of dialogue. Otherwise lets just have a sticky that tells everyone just what and how they they are supposed to think on any given issue, no discussion, and we can save some bandwidth.

--Chris

You are correct, someone might actually learn something. Seriously, you can't claim to be in the pursuit of knowledge then refuse to do any work an research into past discussions.

 

[dtknow]

for the person who said that just because the hybrids are(?) infertile means it is a non issue picture this.

Your prize rare female of x species has molted...and you are looking for male. Now, someone claims to have a MM to match, and is willing to sell it! Great, you buy it. They hit it off real nice. But maybe the female molts a few months later...or creates a sac of duds, or the spiderlings are weak or otherwise messed up(hybrid breakdown).

Chesire: That is really sad on that orchid! Has anyone attempted to produce anything of the likeness to the original species?

 

[SterlingAce]

Sorry to jump in like this.Firstly I must admit I'm a noob to T's.I have read this thread but not the others so please don't yell at me.
I still can't really make up my mind as to if I agree with hybrids or not.I have been in the fish hobby for 10years now.I have seen what hybrids can do there.And trust me lately there is not one pet shop without at least one hybrid fish species.Yet very few people know whats going on.

For instance the parrot fish http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/4/45/300px-Predator_marvin.jpg
Most people think these are an actual species and can read about them in fish keeping books etc.While actually they have been so hybridized nobody knows what they are but yet they are fertile so it doesn't really matter according to some.So we now have a nice new species but people have become bored with them,what can we do now?Lets screw them up some more! :clap: You can now find some that have been bred without tails!Theres actually only the one colour,those nice purples,blues and greens that you see are ink injections.More than 50% of fish die while they are being injected.

An alternative to injecting the fish is to first submerge them in acid and then in colourants.Wow pretty fishy

Then there is the case of Zebra Danios.They were the first victims when scientists,using a virus they derived from HIV,transfered DNA from corals and jellyfish to make the fish glow.They started innocently enough the fish was suppose to only glow in contaminated water.But somebody decided they could alter the fish some more to make them glow permanently and voila! You have a wonderful new addition to the fish trade.

Yes also true is certain catfish species that in nature will breed.Example is the red tail catfish and the tiger shovelnose.This is very rare though but it does happen.
Yes some species don't come from the same area or whatever but what if a species escapes or a very daft owner releases it?Then there is a chance isn't there?

Some might think I'm mad because what does this have to do with T's?
I'm not saying it will but I'm saying this is what we could end up with,freak animals.And I don't know if anybody really wants that.Sure some can be hybridized for experiments but personally I think that only takes place in labs.And as you read even that can get out of hand.True T's are a few decades behind fish.But think of it.How many glow in the dark T's can you sell?Even if its just under a black light?
What if you could breed them to be more docile?Or even more appealing to some,more aggressive?Or bigger?
I only ask one thing.What good can come out of hybrids?

 

[Frédérick]

What if you could breed them to be more docile?Or even more appealing to some,more aggressive?Or bigger?
I only ask one thing.What good can come out of hybrids?

These traits would be the results of artificial selection, which is a completely different topic, and not from hybridization...there are threads on the subject of artificial selection, just use the search function! as for hybrids, it turns out that with Ts, they often produce infertile, weak and less attractive offsprings...of course, there are several exceptions, but this makes it worse if they CAN reproduce and is a threat to the species of the hobby!

 

[SterlingAce]

Oops :8o Thanks Frédérick

 

[imjim]

Well some over enthusiastic scientist will eventually alter a species to circumvent the Lacy Act restriction on exports or imports or to actually protect the species.


What about the Brachypelma domesticated breeding effects?


We’ll just sit back and enjoy our Red, White and Blue, fruit eating, venom less tarantula pets that may have been unavailable otherwise.

 

[Morkelsker]

If I breed a scorpion with a tarantula should I call the babies 'SCORPULAS'?

It will be kind of a camel spider I think