WARNING-California AB1122 Hearing on Wednesday 5/6/09

Noexcuse4you

Arachnodemon
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What does that even mean?
TBH
Regulate: To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.
Live: To be alive
Animal: A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.
Market: A public gathering held for buying and selling merchandise.
 

ThomasH

Arachnoprince
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encourage going to a reputable breeder or shop or expo or convention is all i see this bill doing.... how is that a bad thing???? accountability hopefully:clap: ...

ow by the way in the new world, the term "livestock" incuncubises a wide range of animals including non-domestics or animals intended for commercial sale....its a broader term than just cows, pigs and the such....but i guess that might be a big city vs small town kinda thingy huh???;)

wayne
Like I have been saying, too slippery of a slope. Am I the only one who notices that parts of the bill actually contradict eachother? The word livestock is almost always used in agriculture, I have found very few references using that term differently.
TBH
 

ThomasH

Arachnoprince
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Regulate: To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.
Live: To be alive
Animal: A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure.
Market: A public gathering held for buying and selling merchandise.
Well yes I know the dictionary definition but how is that used in their context? Why would they say regulated live animal markets? And if that is true then what would the point of this entire bill be? I'll just see how it works out, not my state anyway. But why would usark be so concerned if this bill was just to regulate live prizes at carnivals. But if it didn't apply to fairs couldn't you just win fish there? Rendering this bill useless? Too confusing.
TBH
 

ThomasH

Arachnoprince
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"3)Opposition . In opposition to the bill, the California Swap
Meet Owners Association notes that the swap meet owners have
continually argued to be treated as other retail entities
would. Therefore, the Legislature should create a set of
standards so that they can be given the opportunity to sell
these animals in a safe and healthy environment. They argue
that it is unfair to simply impose a blanket prohibition."
This especially leads me to believe that expos are classified as/with swap meets and further proves my "too slippery of a slope" theory.
TBH
 

fantasticp

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Kyle, good god. Why can't you prescribe to the idea of live and let live and minimal regulation. You are being exactly the person that the hobby hates the most when you let laws go on by by saying...well.um...this one isn't so bad. Slowly but surely we then get regulated into a black and white no fun everyone the same box. Remind me to smack you next time you visit please.
 

Noexcuse4you

Arachnodemon
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Kyle, good god. Why can't you prescribe to the idea of live and let live and minimal regulation. You are being exactly the person that the hobby hates the most when you let laws go on by by saying...well.um...this one isn't so bad. Slowly but surely we then get regulated into a black and white no fun everyone the same box. Remind me to smack you next time you visit please.
I think you misread my post. Except for the first one when I didn't read the bill, my argument is that this bill won't affect the hobby.
 

arachnocat

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I checked this morning and it says the hearing was cancelled on request of the author. So I guess we will have to wait some more. That gives us more time to send in our letters and emails.
 

arachnocat

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Message from USARK:

"Yesterday there was a hearing scheduled for AB 1122 in the California Assembly in front of the Appropriations Committee. It was canceled at the last minute by the bill's author. This was likely due to the efforts of USARK, The Reptile Nation and many other groups opposed to the bill. USARK and the Reptile Nation were responsible for 5,127 emails and hundreds of phone calls to the Assembly Members on the Appropriations Committee over a 24 hour period. There were many other animal interests that mobilized against AB 1122 as well... but USARK is not able to track their efforts as we are able to do for our own members. This is not over! This bill will probably be scheduled for a new hearing in the near future. Stay Vigilante!"
 

ShellsandScales

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I am completely sick of these jerks constantly threatening to shut down the livelyhood of thousands of americans. Will someone please just burn the HSUS to the ground already and put them out of our missery,(j/k sort of). They are going to keep trying and will likely eventually succeed,
Especially with the extremely liberal govenrment that has been shoved down our throat hole the last several decades. I'm only twenty eight and wish I lived in a time many decades ago before politicians opened the door for all of this government control over every aspect of our lives. The government has absoultely no right to regulate many of the things that they take control of. They are going to regulate away all of our freedoms until there are none left. Freedom is quickly dying in this country and I hate to see it keep slipping away.

I protested against the hr669 bill and sent my letters, I just don't have the time and resources to keep up on every single piece of legislation they are trying to slip by. If you blink they will take that opportunity to slip a law through and like I saw in the thread earlier... slippery slope and all...... Once they get a foothold its going to be all over. The best government is able to keep peace and protect their population while trying to MINIMIZE their envolvement in our daily lives and right now everything is exactly the opposite.


Looks like its time to buy an island and start my own country!;P
 

fantasticp

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I think you misread my post. Except for the first one when I didn't read the bill, my argument is that this bill won't affect the hobby.


That isn't the total issue. Why does there need to be a bill for the issue at all? you seem very young on many issues IMO and more so in my BF's O. Why over regulate period? Why complicate things, why make more laws just to make them? Don't support legislators who vote for nonsensical and unnecessary laws...... you seem young in you opinions which only makes me feel more like an old hag. Don't mess with shite that ain't broke.

I. E. IF IT AIN"T BROKE DON"T FIX IT. even if it doesn't affect the hobby today, why pass something completely unnecessayr?????????????????????
 

Noexcuse4you

Arachnodemon
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That isn't the total issue. Why does there need to be a bill for the issue at all? you seem very young on many issues IMO and more so in my BF's O. Why over regulate period? Why complicate things, why make more laws just to make them? Don't support legislators who vote for nonsensical and unnecessary laws...... you seem young in you opinions which only makes me feel more like an old hag. Don't mess with shite that ain't broke.

I. E. IF IT AIN"T BROKE DON"T FIX IT. even if it doesn't affect the hobby today, why pass something completely unnecessayr?????????????????????
Why am I not allowed to urinate in public? Why can't I do my shopping naked? Why can't I beat my girlfriend every time she pisses me off (not that I would ever think about doing such a thing)? Because there are intrinsic morals and values inside 99% of us. Unfortunately, the other 1% doesn't and that's when regulations need to be put in place.
 

Dillon

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Unfortunately, the other 1% doesn't and that's when regulations need to be put in place.
Wow...Catering to the minority...

Majority rules.

I agree some things need to be regulated but don't start digging your own grave by passing bills because they dont directly effect you today, at the moment.
 

fantasticp

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Why am I not allowed to urinate in public? Why can't I do my shopping naked? Why can't I beat my girlfriend every time she pisses me off (not that I would ever think about doing such a thing)? Because there are intrinsic morals and values inside 99% of us. Unfortunately, the other 1% doesn't and that's when regulations need to be put in place.
The things you mentioned are completely unrelated to the issue at hand. public sanitation and personal protection are a far cry from the sale of animals. While you're at it, why don't we stop the sale of books out of agreement with the majority, or better yet, burn them! That'll put people in their place!


Just to add: That is just the sort of reasoning people use to justify anti-gay crap..."99% of us have morals yada yada yada"....
 
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sick4x4

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The things you mentioned are completely unrelated to the issue at hand. public sanitation and personal protection are a far cry from the sale of animals. While you're at it, why don't we stop the sale of books out of agreement with the majority, or better yet, burn them! That'll put people in their place!


Just to add: That is just the sort of reasoning people use to justify anti-gay crap..."99% of us have morals yada yada yada"....
what about the taking of creationism out books and god out of the pledge of allegiance crap???? and dont even mention gun laws ummmmmmm, its always funny to see what soap boxes one chooses to stand on when its something they are in favor of...

imported animals can have catastrophic consequences if not regulated..FL is a prime example of non native species producing viable populations where they should not be. ....example, someone let out 8-9 pouched rats(these weigh like 3-5 lbs) and now they are becoming an epidemic and if they start to spread, look what could happen to agriculture..these types of bills make it harder for these things to happen with casual hobbyists...

ca due to its climate can have the same results..which is why they ban alot of non native animals and i dont blame them.... besides most of the people not in favor of the bill dont even live in CA, soo chiming in is kinda a mute point dont you think...im in favor of a registry personally...we have them guns why not animals???they both can have catastrophic results if left unregulated.....
 

Noexcuse4you

Arachnodemon
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The things you mentioned are completely unrelated to the issue at hand. public sanitation and personal protection are a far cry from the sale of animals. While you're at it, why don't we stop the sale of books out of agreement with the majority, or better yet, burn them! That'll put people in their place!


Just to add: That is just the sort of reasoning people use to justify anti-gay crap..."99% of us have morals yada yada yada"....
The things I mentioned was in response to your statement of "Don't support legislators who vote for nonsensical and unnecessary laws".

These laws wouldn't be necessary if everyone knew the difference between right and wrong and always followed right. If everyone who sold their animals on the side of the road, outside of walmart, at the fair, etc. treated their animals humanely, then these laws wouldn't have to be put in place. The problem is, they don't and that's when regulations are put into place.

For the record, I am for gay rights. Being gay has nothing to do with morals. Its purely biological.

I am finished with this argument. Arguing on the internet is pointless.
 

fantasticp

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what about the taking of creationism out books and god out of the pledge of allegiance crap???? and dont even mention gun laws ummmmmmm, its always funny to see what soap boxes one chooses to stand on when its something they are in favor of...

imported animals can have catastrophic consequences if not regulated..FL is a prime example of non native species producing viable populations where they should not be. ....example, someone let out 8-9 pouched rats(these weigh like 3-5 lbs) and now they are becoming an epidemic and if they start to spread, look what could happen to agriculture..these types of bills make it harder for these things to happen with casual hobbyists...

ca due to its climate can have the same results..which is why they ban alot of non native animals and i dont blame them.... besides most of the people not in favor of the bill dont even live in CA, soo chiming in is kinda a mute point dont you think...im in favor of a registry personally...we have them guns why not animals???they both can have catastrophic results if left unregulated.....

Ok first. We both know where I live. (in CA) So are you directing that response at me beneath my quote??? No we should not have registered animals or registered guns (some states still don't) or mandatory GPS systems installed in our cars so the government knows where and when I travel (And no, I don't carry a cell phone everywhere and prefer to spend cash. What kind of freedom does one have if they are led around on a leash? We can even install snitch devices so speeding tickets print right out of your dashboard too.

Punish stupid people who are irresponsible with animals, and not only are you promoting free society and choices, but eliminating the need to create another money pit of an agency to regulate all these new laws.


...Speaking of soapboxes, we all know you are a complete socialist under the delusion UN ideals entitle every man woman and child free shelter and free healthcare and that the US would ever adopt that mentality. So I guess you were just introducing yourself there.


And kyle, arguing/discussing on the internet is what you do. If you have to take your ball and go home, just say so.
 

sick4x4

Arachnoprince
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free society??? there's no such thing, regulatory measures are in place because without such regulations civilization is incapable of governing itself.. an experimentation already tried and tested and completely failed....which is why democracy hasn't been practiced in the US for some time now;) dugh...

if you play by the rules you have nothing to fear, you dont;P well than off to hell you go....do i like that its mandatory to wear a seat belt no, do i think im drunk and cant drive if im over .08 no..but these legislation's where put into practice to protect us from the foreseeable consequence of not implementing them. does it hurt people who abide by them no but break them and watch out. same with this bill...

so as far as being a socialist???? you have got to be mixing me up with someone else...anyone who knows me, knows im a true capitalist...but this chicken little philosophy you and Thomas are spewing out... as though big brother is somehow going to outlaw expos and dealers of exotic animals somewhere down the road by making sure puppy-mills, mass produced animals and the illegal distribution of live animals is controlled:eek: is, forgive me here but its a little comedic don't you think...whats with this pandemic view of legislation to curtail the exploitation of animals.....dont you think one Florida is bad enough????

wayne
 

cacoseraph

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heh

dictionary definitions absolutely do not matter in a legal context


i looked at what someone posted as the bill, but it was only a couple few pages long... so i doubt it is the full thing


basically, the bill should define animal and should define all terms specific to the bill *somewhere*. if they don't, the bill would be all but unenforceable in the CA and USA legal system. as an instance of why this matters.... the CA Fish and Game or whatever specifically do NOT include terrestrial invertebrates in their definition of animal, thus NONE of their regulations for "animals" apply to 99% of the inverts anyone on this board keeps












and as for why laws like this are created? well, in the USA you can not be convicted of a crime ex post facto.... that is, unless there are specific laws ON THE BOOKS specifically making and event illegal when or before an event takes place you can not be convicted of any wrong doing. so, if scumbags selling half dead animals out of the back of their SUV are not breaking any current laws (which is entirely possible, due to having to so carefully define everything) then THIS law would allow them to be prosecuted. of course, most laws also have hidden agendas to them, and something like this certainly seems ripe for it



ultimately, from what i read of the bill no clear legal conclusions could be drawn for implications to our hobby and our expos and what not. it looked like maybe i just read an abstract or something though




edit:

ah, this bill is an addendum or whatnot to Section 597 and compliments 5971. if someone cares, they should look for better definitions in there. do quote what you get in here so we can make sure you are reading it right, though
 

Drachenjager

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Like I have been saying, too slippery of a slope. Am I the only one who notices that parts of the bill actually contradict eachother? The word livestock is almost always used in agriculture, I have found very few references using that term differently.
TBH
I have seen signage in many pet stores that say "No Guarantee on Livestock". In fact i have a few tanks purchased from pet stores that still have labels on them stating just that. I really do not think they are selling Wilbur the pig outta there.
 

Drachenjager

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I am completely sick of these jerks constantly threatening to shut down the livelyhood of thousands of americans. Will someone please just burn the HSUS to the ground already and put them out of our missery,(j/k sort of). They are going to keep trying and will likely eventually succeed,
Especially with the extremely liberal govenrment that has been shoved down our throat hole the last several decades. I'm only twenty eight and wish I lived in a time many decades ago before politicians opened the door for all of this government control over every aspect of our lives. The government has absoultely no right to regulate many of the things that they take control of. They are going to regulate away all of our freedoms until there are none left. Freedom is quickly dying in this country and I hate to see it keep slipping away.

I protested against the hr669 bill and sent my letters, I just don't have the time and resources to keep up on every single piece of legislation they are trying to slip by. If you blink they will take that opportunity to slip a law through and like I saw in the thread earlier... slippery slope and all...... Once they get a foothold its going to be all over. The best government is able to keep peace and protect their population while trying to MINIMIZE their envolvement in our daily lives and right now everything is exactly the opposite.


Looks like its time to buy an island and start my own country!;P
its typical of a socialist government to attempt to CONTROL every aspect of your life, from telling what kind of car to drive to telling you what you can sell and where . DOWN WITH SOCIALISM vote for the Constitution party!!! Seriously tho. It is a sign of the times that all this socialist agenda is getting shoved down our throats. And it surprises me that the democrats are wondering why many in Texas talk of secession ...mind boggling. We have way too many bloody laws now. Most of which are actually Illegal. If the constitution does not give that power to the government then The government can not claim that power. . Period. Next thing people will be saying that the 2nd amendment applies to the military and police only. and forget what infringed means. Good grief what a bunch of idiots we have become .
 
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