red rosea

[LeilaNami]

The substrate and diet police are here again, as usual - typically rigid and inflexible in their judgment and averse to alternatives

- Has it ever been proven that calcium is detrimental to spiders?
- Has it ever been proven that wood chips as a substrate is detrimental to spiders?
- Has it not occurred to any of you that since his spider has been living and thriving on that substrate for years, it may actually be suitable?
- Has it not occurred to you (blix) that tarantulas walk on all kinds of hard substrates in the wild? Why, then, do they not suffer gashed abdomens? Why, then, would it happen to captive tarantulas on wood chips?

-No it has not been absolutely proven however strongly linked to wet molts as well as speculated in interference with the structure of hemolymph and nerve firing. Not to mention the mess that the mouse that size would cause. Do you clean the enclosure out every time? I really don't think you do. If there is a lot of calcium in the diet it is not 100% guaranteed for a bad molts but why would you increase the risk for it?
-Pretty much. Wood chips splinter, they do not hold any humidity, they are abrasive. Yes, I've seen a T at a store with a big splinter sticking out of the abdomen while trying to molt. Obviously it died. There has been a general consensus that wood chips alone are detrimental to the health of the T for a reason. A mix might not be so bad but the pure wood shown in the pictures can only lead to problems eventually. It also depends on the wood chips used. Some are made of hardwoods and some soft. Some are not wood at all and made of coconut husk. The most common marketed chips are usually hardwoods.
-Yes they may walk on different substrates however I would like you to show me a wild T burrowed in pure wood chips please. As far as gashes on the abdomen, please see the answer to the second question.

In summary, most agree to the detrimental effects of wood chips because of past experiences and problems associated with them. It isn't something pulled out of our butts so we can argue.

 

[burmish101]

I guess some people that keep T. blondi that also feed them vertibrate prey sometimes have molt issues. It isnt even scientifically proven thats the cause for T. blondi molt issues. So far I havent heard of G. rosea having issues with molt trouble in general so I would guess everythings safe in moderation. I'd also suggest feeding pre killed mice if you feel the need, but for all I know you could of been doing that already as I dont think it was mentioned(strictly for safety of your spider), just throwing that out there just in case;P

 

[wedge07]

I guess some people that keep T. blondi that also feed them vertibrate prey sometimes have molt issues. It isnt even scientifically proven thats the cause for T. blondi molt issues. So far I havent heard of G. rosea having issues with molt trouble in general so I would guess everythings safe in moderation. I'd also suggest feeding pre killed mice if you feel the need, but for all I know you could of been doing that already as I dont think it was mentioned(strictly for safety of your spider), just throwing that out there just in case;P

T. blondis have problems molting period. It is mostly due to the conditions they need to be kept in. There are quite a few people on the board with fairly large blondis and feed them a diet mostly of mice.

 

[Dan D.]

I know how we can solve this substrate issue.... We can all build little trampolines so when the T falls they just bounce off and have a good time too!

 

[LeilaNami]

T. blondis have problems molting period. It is mostly due to the conditions they need to be kept in. There are quite a few people on the board with fairly large blondis and feed them a diet mostly of mice.

Yes. In pretty much all the speculation to high calcium issues was in regards to the blondis.

 

[Kloster]

Almost everyone in this thread got too caught up with the drama to pay attention to what OP is actually saying.

His spider has been living in that enclosure for quite some time. It has adapted to it, it may not be the best substrate but its deffinetly not poison.
It has grown in there since it was a sling. Its home for her.

The spider to me, although not a T keeper for a long time, looks perfectly fine.

I will say though that as tortuga mentioned(love the nelf avatar btw), its SAFER to keep them in a softer substrate and to not feed the rats cause they CAN bite your T. However, if youve been doing it for some time and feel like your T has no problem handling it then by all means go ahead, in the end this is the internet(lolsrsbizness) and you can do whatever you want.

In a way I do feel like Gavin is just posting for the sake of argueing but I also agree that as soon as I saw the pics I thought "incoming WRONG SUBSTRATE WRONG FOOD" flood.

Like I said... this is THE internet. And no Gavin this isnt a scientific journal its been adviced by sevral long-time keepers that the calcium does seem to cause molting problems. Seeing as most people that post here arent scientists with proper knowledge and equipment NOBODY knows 100% whether the calcium really does affect them.
We dont know if it does or if it doesnt, but just in case... why not be safe?

I guess im in the middle here, if the T seems to be THRIVING not SURVIVING in the enclosure she is kept then let her be, if shes had previous bad molts. Injuries from falls or feeders then be reasonable and have common sense to make appropiate(sp?) changes.

Back on topic... beautiful T!! I wish I had one but theyre soo expensive.

 

[wedge07]

I have never seen any species besides Theraposa sp. have problems with molting due to calcium. Theraposa sp. have a hard time molting period. I believe with them it has more to do with the special environmental requirements of that genus than anything else.

 

[ILoveRoaches]

Umm...you do know who Newton is right??

Third law of motion states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore in order for the substrate to "break" the fall it has to push back with a force equal to the force of the falling spider. If it does not push back with said amount of force the spider goes through the substrate. If you really want to know the dynamics of said situation I can setup a diagram.

Oh no I was just confused when he said "Hence, the force generated by a fall on soil is actually greater than that on wood chips." It made me think that somehow the substrate is contributing to the force being generated by the falling spider because soil had more mass than wood chips, which to me didn't make sense and that's why I asked how something that's not moving, can affect the force being generated by the falling spider. But I guess what he meant was the actual impact, since the substrate would be pushing back.

I wouldn't have been so confused if I was aware of the third law of motion (didn't even know there was more than 1 lol). But yes it makes sense, falling on pavement hurts more than falling on something softer

 

[Kloster]

Yeah I mean the calcium-molting thing is just something thats easy to bring up from previous cases. Truth be told theres a species(cant remember the name srry) that lives in deserts and a lot of its diet consists of small reptiles and rodents, i.e. verts. If a lot of their food consists of boned animals and theyve been thriving and surviving for years...

 

[LeilaNami]

Yeah I mean the calcium-molting thing is just something thats easy to bring up from previous cases. Truth be told theres a species(cant remember the name srry) that lives in deserts and a lot of its diet consists of small reptiles and rodents, i.e. verts. If a lot of their food consists of boned animals and theyve been thriving and surviving for years...

Okay that's great but generalizing care for all species of Ts like that will only lead to deadly mistakes.

 

[Kloster]

Okay that's great but generalizing care for all species of Ts like that will only lead to deadly mistakes.

I agree with you completely. Like I said, it CAN be done, but it doesnt mean it SHOULD be done.
But we are T keepers to enjoy watching them and caring for them not to see if they maybe survive. I mean I could be totally wrong here and rd is doing some sort of experiment but I highly doubt that...

 

[wedge07]

Oh no I was just confused when he said "Hence, the force generated by a fall on soil is actually greater than that on wood chips." It made me think that somehow the substrate is contributing to the force being generated by the falling spider because soil had more mass than wood chips, which to me didn't make sense and that's why I asked how something that's not moving, can affect the force being generated by the falling spider. But I guess what he meant was the actual impact, since the substrate would be pushing back.

I wouldn't have been so confused if I was aware of the third law of motion (didn't even know there was more than 1 lol). But yes it makes sense, falling on pavement hurts more than falling on something softer

When talking about soft objects as opposed to harder objects it becomes a dynamics problem. Soft objects actually slow the said object down before imposing a, for lack of a better word, max force. Harder objects do this to some extent but they exact the max force much quicker. F=ma so the acceleration between the objects is actually higher and thus the force exerted on the falling object is actually much higher.

For the calcium argument: I don't really support feeding verts to tarantulas but there is nothing that shows calcium has any affect on tarantulas. I just feel it is a little too dangerous for a tarantula that size to subdue a mouse. If we were talking about a T that was 8"+ I really wouldn't worry too much.

 

[upwith inverts!]

The other thing with woodchips is that some chunks stick up higher than others, , so say there is a .5 inch sq. piece sticking up above the rest, so the tarantula hits that piece first. It's still hitting that peice with the same force as if it hit all the peices at the same time, but because the piece sticking up above the ground is smaller, as opposed to hitting all the other peices at once, There is more force per sq. unit, giving the piece more penetrating power. So the problem with woodchips is that they can't be made so that they are level along their plane.

 

[Miss Bianca]

Almost everyone in this thread got too caught up with the drama to pay attention to what OP is actually saying.

His spider has been living in that enclosure for quite some time. It has adapted to it, it may not be the best substrate but its deffinetly not poison.
It has grown in there since it was a sling. Its home for her.

The spider to me, although not a T keeper for a long time, looks perfectly fine.

I will say though that as tortuga mentioned(love the nelf avatar btw), its SAFER to keep them in a softer substrate and to not feed the rats cause they CAN bite your T. However, if youve been doing it for some time and feel like your T has no problem handling it then by all means go ahead, in the end this is the internet(lolsrsbizness) and you can do whatever you want.

In a way I do feel like Gavin is just posting for the sake of argueing but I also agree that as soon as I saw the pics I thought "incoming WRONG SUBSTRATE WRONG FOOD" flood.

Like I said... this is THE internet. And no Gavin this isnt a scientific journal its been adviced by sevral long-time keepers that the calcium does seem to cause molting problems. Seeing as most people that post here arent scientists with proper knowledge and equipment NOBODY knows 100% whether the calcium really does affect them.
We dont know if it does or if it doesnt, but just in case... why not be safe?

I guess im in the middle here, if the T seems to be THRIVING not SURVIVING in the enclosure she is kept then let her be, if shes had previous bad molts. Injuries from falls or feeders then be reasonable and have common sense to make appropiate(sp?) changes.

Back on topic... beautiful T!! I wish I had one but theyre soo expensive.

-Thanks!

-Yes most of us all went off topic..

-I agree about Gavin even though I love'm..

and
-RCFs are expensive???

 

[Ritzman]

I was thinking the same thing about the RCF. I thought there prices were pretty decent if not cheap.

 

[LeilaNami]

Ok so half the thread is now discussing physics while the other half is still on the T subject

 

[wedge07]

Lol, sorry. I was an engineering major in college.

 

[zwd22]

A softer landing? Are you sure? Let's do the math (or physics, rather).

Force (measured in newtons) = mass x acceleration. A certain volume of wood chips is lighter (has less mass) than the same volume of soil. Hence, the force generated by a fall on soil is actually greater than that on wood chips, provided the acceleration by gravity in both cases is the same.

I'm sorry but you need to brush up on ur high school physics(no insult intended). The proper way to find force is as following:
The force generated by the substrate on the tarantula is the result of the reaction force(newton's third law of equal and opposite reaction) this is equal to the amount of force applied by the falling T, which is the same no matter what substrate.

The force of impact is created by the sudden change in momentum(massxvelocity), to be percise F=change in momentum/time. This essentially means that the longer it takes for the object to slow down the less force will be applied to it.(eg. air bag works by slowing you down slowly, so that your momentum change happens over a longer period of time thus lowering the force applied to you).

A denser object would not compress as much on impact thus the change in momentum happens much quicker, where as a softer material would compress(much like an air bag does) and thus increases the amount of time in which the momentum will change. I'm not entirely sure which would absorb the fall better, the wood chip or soil(depends on how densely packed the wood chip is), however if you take into account pressure=force/area, the pointy edge of a would chip would be an obvious threat.

I'm sorry for the physics mumble jumbo, i'm not a teacher i'm a student if i didn't explain things properly it is my fault. But as a science student I cannot let misconceptions propagate much in the same way a tarantula hobbyist cannot let misconceptions about tarantulas propagate.

As for the OP, I think my opinion is this, your substrate worked for you, so it's probably not too dangerous, I think what people are trying to point out is that a soil substrate is probably safer. It is not necessarily saying your wrong, but saying that there might be a better alternative. Same can be said about the mice diet.

 

[wedge07]

I'm sorry but you need to brush up on ur high school physics(no insult intended). The proper way to find force is as following:
The force generated by the substrate on the tarantula is the result of the reaction force(newton's third law of equal and opposite reaction) this is equal to the amount of force applied by the falling T, which is the same no matter what substrate.

The force of impact is created by the sudden change in momentum(massxvelocity), to be percise F=change in momentum/time. This essentially means that the longer it takes for the object to slow down the less force will be applied to it.(eg. air bag works by slowing you down slowly, so that your momentum change happens over a longer period of time thus lowering the force applied to you).

A denser object would not compress as much on impact thus the change in momentum happens much quicker, where as a softer material would compress(much like an air bag does) and thus increases the amount of time in which the momentum will change. I'm not entirely sure which would absorb the fall better, the wood chip or soil(depends on how densely packed the wood chip is), however if you take into account pressure=force/area, the pointy edge of a would chip would be an obvious threat.

I'm sorry for the physics mumble jumbo, i'm not a teacher i'm a student if i didn't explain things properly it is my fault. But as a science student I cannot let misconceptions propagate much in the same way a tarantula hobbyist cannot let misconceptions about tarantulas propagate.

Very well said. :clap: I tend to get tired of explaining everything so I end up putting these things into laments terms and fail most of the time.
F=ma
a=v/t
M=mv
F=(mv)/t
F=M/t
I like simplifying it. Normally I would just post this and be done with it.

 

[LeilaNami]

Very well said. :clap: I tend to get tired of explaining everything so I end up putting these things into laments terms.

I'll stick with my zoology thanks :}