Potential hobby setbacks

[Razzledazzy]

I still want to know if the hobby is doomed or not. Should I be snapping up slings while I still can?

 

[Vanessa]

Every single person defending the poaching of this species comes from a country where animals are endangered, at risk, or facing extinction. We all live in countries where deforestation, habitat loss, and human encroachment is wreaking havoc on wild animal populations.
Are you okay with a bunch of foreigners showing up, and poaching what's left of your endangered species, on the basis that they don't feel like you've taken good enough care of them? Even though they are absolutely correct, that we don't respect our wildlife enough to prevent them from becoming at risk, I'm still not okay with them poaching what's left of them. So, explain to me why Brazil should be okay with that when you aren't? Or Chile? Or any of the other countries with strict export and anti-poaching laws?
People breeding indiscriminately, without even being able to identify the species properly, creating hybrids and hobby forms in every genus contributes to keeping the demand for 'pure' wild caught species alive. Just look at how people were describing the Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua when they first hit the hobby - how they were the 'true' B.albopilosum and not just the muddled up, inferior, hobby form. Someone on this thread has actually brought up that species and implied that they aren't legally in the hobby either. Colour me shocked.
The only factor that drives poaching is demand. The demand for this species is going to decrease significantly when people are faced with potential confiscation of tarantulas that cost them hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars without them having a hope of getting it back. How many people are going to keep breeding them when they can't sell them anymore? My guess is that a lot of future breeding programs for this species have been placed on hold. That doesn't sound like altruism to me.

 

[Vorax29]

I don't understand a few things.
Anyone is able to answer me please?

-What about the people in the USA who already have T. seladonia (and other brazilian species)? Can they have problems with the law?
-And if an american person has 1 male + 1 female T. seladonia and decide to breed them, what will happen to the offspring?

 

[Chris LXXIX]

-What about the people in the USA who already have T. seladonia (and other brazilian species)? Can they have problems with the law?

Yes. Sooner or later the FBI, along with Brazilian officers, would kidnap and deport (fast as heck, at night) those "owners of T.seladonia Americans" from their Mid West homes straight to Copacabana, Rio de Janeiro, and punish them for their crime forcing said Americans to act as human crossbar for Soccer - in Brazil called Futebol

-And if an american person has 1 male + 1 female T. seladonia and decide to breed them, what will happen to the offspring?

Same as above, just that, instead of become a Futebol (Soccer) living crossbar, those Americans would end straight inside Queimada Grande island, without shoes

 

[Vorax29]

Ok, thank you for this fantastic moment of pure fun!

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Ok, thank you for this fantastic moment of pure fun!

Ah ah... I think that nothing will happens - except maybe at an 'higher level' - which means that Brazil will take action and stop the import of said specie (who knows, maybe other Brazilian native species as well, but I doubt, frankly) or something like that.

I've said maybe because when cash is involved, uhm... you know.

Nothing will happens to the U.S keepers of said spider. No steroid-SWAT Team would destroy their doors searching for a T.seladonia, no bizarre U.S officer from some weird department would inspect their garden-barbecue for check if inside there's hiding a T.seladonia.

And if someone is lucky enough to have a sexed, ready to breed, pair of said spider, $ Bling Bling $: just, as an advice, he/she should mantain a low profile, you never know

 

[Olan]

I don't understand a few things.
Anyone is able to answer me please?

-What about the people in the USA who already have T. seladonia (and other brazilian species)? Can they have problems with the law?
-And if an american person has 1 male + 1 female T. seladonia and decide to breed them, what will happen to the offspring?

Well, as far as I can tell, breeding these T. seladonia is not illegal. But selling them or even just giving them away is illegal. Same with Lasiodoras, Nhandus, geniculatas, pulchras. But as to whether a hobbyist will be tracked down and prosecuted, the chances are very slim. Maybe the USFWS will crack down on T. seladonia since there are so few in the US. They can realistically stop all selling of this species. I don’t think they’ll be cracking down on the Lasiodora trade, despite it technically being illegal. But it’s now something to worry about if you plan on breeding any exclusively Brazilian species.

 

[Vorax29]

Ok.
I asked because, for example, here in France, we have (I think) the most strict law about tarantulas.
They are considered as "dangerous animals", and even to own just one single tarantula, you must have all the official authorizations (including cites permits, a book with all your tarantulas registered, from where they come with the official permits to justify their origins...etc...).
And the veterinary services do NOT joke with this!
Many french tarantulas keepers (well, I don't know, but I've heard in France there's is something like only 50 people with all the official permits) faced problems with justice because of their "illegal" hobby.
And the french authorities seize the animals to put them in some random authorized breedings.
So even if my question seemed a little bit dumb, it's just because I think it would not be so crazy to have many brazilian tarantulas seized (viewed by me french eyes).
But if in the USA no one needs any permit to buy any tarantulas, of course, there will be no problem...

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Ok.
I asked because, for example, here in France, we have (I think) the most strict law about tarantulas.
They are considered as "dangerous animals", and even to own just one single tarantula, you must have all the official authorizations (including cites permits, a book with all your tarantulas registered, from where they come with the official permits to justify their origins...etc...).
And the veterinary services do NOT joke with this!
Many french tarantulas keepers (well, I don't know, but I've heard in France there's is something like only 50 people with all the official permits) faced problems with justice because of their "illegal" hobby.
And the french authorities seize the animals to put them in some random authorized breedings.
So even if my question seemed a little bit dumb, it's just because I think it would not be so crazy to have many brazilian tarantulas seized (viewed by me french eyes).
But if in the USA no one needs any permit to buy any tarantulas, of course, there will be no problem...

Well, watch an amazing positive side of France: at least you can purchase (and keep at your home, without particular permits) canne-épée basically banned in every European nation (save Italy, but with permits).

I'm an avid collector of those, btw, especially Herdegen ones (Fayet ones are too priced )

jok

No, seriously, here in Italy laws about arachnids sucks, but maaaan, now that I've heard this I can say that France ones are worst

I blame Benalla, quite frankly

 

[pocock1899]

One last point, regarding the bigger picture...

Many people have been critical of Brazil for it's environmental policies, particularly the ones that impact the keeping of (poached, Brazilian) tarantulas.
This isn't just some arbritary, or academic, discussion that has no real effect on people's lives outside the tarantula community.

The NGO Global Witness posts a yearly accounting of all of the environmental activists who are killed around the world. Last year, there were 57 activists killed in Brazil for trying to protect the envionment from people who would log, the forests or poach wildlife. That's more than any other country in the world.
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/07/n...ironmental-activists-rose-once-again-in-2017/


You may not have pulled the trigger, but if you bought a recently poached animal (or bloodline, like T. seladonia), you helped finance the people who did.

That's the bottom line.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

One last point, regarding the bigger picture...

Many people have been critical of Brazil for it's environmental policies, particularly the ones that impact the keeping of (poached, Brazilian) tarantulas.
This isn't just some arbritary, or academic, discussion that has no real effect on people's lives outside the tarantula community.

The NGO Global Witness posts a yearly accounting of all of the environmental activists who are killed around the world. Last year, there were 57 activists killed in Brazil for trying to protect the envionment from people who would log, the forests or poach wildlife. That's more than any other country in the world.
https://news.mongabay.com/2018/07/n...ironmental-activists-rose-once-again-in-2017/


You may not have pulled the trigger, but if you bought a recently poached animal (or bloodline, like T. seladonia), you helped finance the people who did.

That's the bottom line.

While you are damn right (at an ethical/moral level) let's be completely honest: those activists were killed because they dared to oppose huge, powerful corporations (and the like of those) that, with the power/arrogance of cash, wanted and wants to destroy part of the forest for build new roads, crappy 5* Hotel, factories, pillage whatever possible resource etc with the aid of local politicians and businessmans.

But definitely not for smuggling a spider worth $200 (or another laughable sum) in the U.S. That's the work of what I call the 'hustlers', people that 'enter' after, using their contacts in the nation, and smuggle the hell out.

Truth is, while Brazil can try to stop the 'hustlers' (so bye bye Brazilian T's - maybe) I think that no one will stop the powerful corporations that acts with a pure - by cash - supranational attitude.

This is the real main issue for the environment 'question': greedyness, at such a 'normalized' and powerful level.

 

[Olan]

So PalpFriction is back online, and now they have the following notice on Brazilian species:
“*This species is endemic to Brazil and therefore can only be purchased through our website by Michigan residents at this time. If you purchase a species marked “Michigan sales only” without a Michigan address, we will email you to offer a swap or refund. ”
So it looks like maybe USFW will be only enforcing the Lacey Act for sales across state borders.

 

[SonsofArachne]

So PalpFriction is back online, and now they have the following notice on Brazilian species:
“*This species is endemic to Brazil and therefore can only be purchased through our website by Michigan residents at this time. If you purchase a species marked “Michigan sales only” without a Michigan address, we will email you to offer a swap or refund. ”
So it looks like maybe USFW will be only enforcing the Lacey Act for sales across state borders.

It will be interesting to see if any of the other big dealers follow suit.

Just went through all the sellers' websites that I have bookmarked - no mention of this so far.

 

[MetalMan2004]

Sounds to me like they decided to try to get ahead of a potential problem since clearly their name had been tossed around quite a bit in this whole mess.

I do find it interesting that they are still selling them to Michigan residents. Its like they identified the le and interpreted it as not being enforceable within the state or something. I’d be interested to here their line of thought straight from them.

 

[Olan]

Sounds to me like they decided to try to get ahead of a potential problem since clearly their name had been tossed around quite a bit in this whole mess.

I do find it interesting that they are still selling them to Michigan residents. Its like they identified the le and interpreted it as not being enforceable within the state or something. I’d be interested to here their line of thought straight from them.

Yeah, hopefully they make a statement or a video or something.

 

[MetalMan2004]

Yeah, hopefully they make a statement or a video or something.

I won’t hold my breath. I just find it interesting that they are basically acknowledging the problem but haven’t pulled the sales of them altogether.

 

[Vorax29]

I've found this picture on facebook...
So Poecilotheria is also concerned or this is a fake?

 

[Sarkhan42]

I've found this picture on facebook...
So Poecilotheria is also concerned or this is a fake?

Came here to post this, it’s very real. Indian species will follow shortly.

 

[AF Exotics]

Very much the start of things to come . There will be more .

I believe this will be an uncomfortable path to legitimacy if handled responsibly .

 

[AngelDeVille]

I'm glad I only collect rubber spiders.