Potential hobby setbacks

[Ultum4Spiderz]

This is all good except the fact the trees they are logging are worth far more than this hobby will ever produce in revenues. The countries involved need better habitat protection before this is feasible or there wont be anything left to introduce the produced stock into

Wildlife destroyed is worth 100000x what the logs are worth, not even counting inverts. Once enough forest is destroyed , modern civilization could collapse.
Not to mention what these crazy trophy hunters pay for stuff that’s near extinct.
They just are too lazy to go out and see value of the animals there easier to kill everything for logs.
Not that that’s legal but either, corporations have so much money they are above laws it seems.
Same Thing Europeans did to North America. Back in the 1500s and before , and after. We’re did most the megafauna go?
Not much we can do I guess, billionaires are too worried about then next sports game or car . Not wildlife

 

[Paul1126]

Yes, and I think tarantula Dan has two of them.

Technically, illegally obtained?
Didn't Dan pay like £600 for a sling that's mental

 

[CyclingSam]

I have gotten busy as of late, but I am hoping for some time in the near future to dig into this issue.

 

[Greasylake]

Technically, illegally obtained?
Didn't Dan pay like £600 for a sling that's mental

Yeah I think he paid 600 pounds for the first one, not sure about the second one, and yes because of the way the law is set up those slings are both illegal to own. The parents they were bred from had to have been smuggled out since Brazil doesn't allow export of wildlife, and the offspring of smuggled animals are still considered illegal.

 

[dragonfire1577]

Come and confiscate every single A. geniculata Brazil, I dare you

 

[Ron Robbins Jr]

Yeah I think he paid 600 pounds for the first one, not sure about the second one, and yes because of the way the law is set up those slings are both illegal to own. The parents they were bred from had to have been smuggled out since Brazil doesn't allow export of wildlife, and the offspring of smuggled animals are still considered illegal.

I don't believe TarantulaDan is in the United States, so the Lacey Act does not apply to him. Perhaps where he's at has some different laws. I don't know.

 

[Greasylake]

I don't believe TarantulaDan is in the United States, so the Lacey Act does not apply to him

He's British, but the law Brazil is cracking down on is Brazilian law, not American, meaning that Brazil is going to be cracking down on T. seldadonia all over the world.

 

[Ron Robbins Jr]

He's British, but the law Brazil is cracking down on is Brazilian law, not American, meaning that Brazil is going to be cracking down on T. seldadonia all over the world.

Maybe if England has a law similar to the Lacey Act. This so far seems to only apply in the United States, apparently due to Brazil somehow asking us to enforce "our own laws". I am no expert on the laws in other countries, but I would assume many countries would have things in action such as the Lacey Act, but who knows. If they don't, then it's pretty much free reign once it crosses past Brazil if the country it's being shipped to refuses to honor Brazilian laws. But why would they refuse and create global unrest?

 

[Vorax29]

The day the government of England will take a look at the hobby, some people will have some surprises...
Especially those who had for sale "WC pure Brachypelma albopilosum from Nicaragua" and did not provide any single official permit with the orders...

 

[birdspidersCH]

probably not the most recent one, but I covered some things in a video as well - most of you seem already very informed about the topic, so it might not add enough value to you guys.

 

[boina]

Would Lacey’s act not apply to Chilean species and South African baboon species too?

Yes, but a law only applies from the day it was instituted onward. Since exporting spiders from Chile has been legal until rather recently all spiders imported to Europe/the USA before that date are perfectly legal to keep and breed. So, all the Chilean species are safe.

That, of course, begs the question: Since when is the Brazilian Environmental Act in effect? I know the current legislation is from 1998, but I don't know what was before that. It is possibly that species exported before 1998 are perfectly legal.

 

[StampFan]

probably not the most recent one, but I covered some things in a video as well - most of you seem already very informed about the topic, so it might not add enough value to you guys.

It was an excellent video on this topic, watched it the other day. And the quality of your vids is really amazing. Your commentary is great, keep up the good work.

 

[Ron Robbins Jr]

I actually sent an email to the USFWS this morning asking about all this. They gave me a "message ID" and I got an email saying it was referred to another person and I should get a reply back in a week. I was going to email the same type of organization in Brazil, but their contact link doesn't work on their website. I don't know if this will shed light on any more information, but if it does I will post it here.

 

[CasualCoffee]

Going to follow this closely since I just had a G. pulchra sling die in pre-molt and it would break my heart not to be able to get another...

 

[Olan]

I actually sent an email to the USFWS this morning asking about all this. They gave me a "message ID" and I got an email saying it was referred to another person and I should get a reply back in a week. I was going to email the same type of organization in Brazil, but their contact link doesn't work on their website. I don't know if this will shed light on any more information, but if it does I will post it here.

I sent them an email to clarify the legality of Brazilian species that are captive born, and they sent this back:

"Dear Olan,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the legality of captive born tarantulas. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's mission is, working with others, to conserve, protect and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.
The possession and domestic or international trade of illegally imported specimens is prohibited. In addition, any possession of offspring of illegal specimens is also considered illegal. A specimen that has been traded contrary to foreign government law becomes contraband at the time it enters the jurisdiction of the United States. If such a specimen makes its way into the United States, the individual or business holding or having control of the specimen has no custodial or property rights to the specimen and therefore, no right to possess, transfer, breed or propagate such specimens.
Therefore, the sale or purchase of captive born tarantulas, if they are the offspring of illegally imported animals, is illegal.Thank you for your cooperation in complying with our regulations that help protect fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats. Please feel free to respond to this message with any further inquiries that you may have regarding this matter."

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

This is where the Lacey Act comes in. The Lacey Act is a big law. Among other things, it covers marking of wildlife shipments, invasive species and transport of wildlife into and through the United States. Under the Lacey Act, "it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants that are taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law." Read that last sentence carefully....
This means that if an animal is illegally possessed in violation of foreign (Brazilian) law, then it is unlawful to import it into the United States.

The point: Importing those illegal T. seladonia is unlawful.

The possession and domestic or international trade of illegally imported specimens is prohibited. In addition, any possession of offspring of illegal specimens is also considered illegal. A specimen that has been traded contrary to foreign government law becomes contraband at the time it enters the jurisdiction of the United States. If such a specimen makes its way into the United States, the individual or business holding or having control of the specimen has no custodial or property rights to the specimen and therefore, no right to possess, transfer, breed or propagate such specimens.
Therefore, the sale or purchase of captive born tarantulas, if they are the offspring of illegally imported animals, is illegal.

These two bits of information from the USFW department still don't clarify the legality of the situation encountered by Palp Friction as described in the linked Facebook post. According to the short summary of the Lacey Act and the e-mail from USFW, T. seladonia collected and exported from Brazil in violation of their law is in turn illegal to import to the USA and the offspring of those specimens after making it to the USA are also illegal.

So, if T. seladonia were illegally collected and exported from Brazil to a European country then those same illegally collected specimens were to be imported from Europe to the USA, those T. seladonia would be illegal in the USA. That would be more like laundering illegally captured wildlife.

BUT, that isn't what happened in the Palp Friction case. How I understand what Palp Friction ran into was that the illegally collected T. seladonia were never imported to the USA from Europe and bred in captivity. To my understanding, the illegally collected Brazilian tarantulas were imported to some country in Europe, bred in captivity, and the offspring were the ones stopped by USFW to the surprise of Palp Friction who followed the wildlife importation laws of the USA. The surprise in the Palp Friction case was that the actual specimens that were illegally collected were never sent to the USA.

I haven't yet seen anything official from the USFW department that clearly states how Palp Friction violated USFW laws and regulations by importing the offspring of T. seladonia from Europe.

It would seem that European tarantula smugglers have been exploiting a loophole in the USFW wildlife importation law where tarantulas born and residing on European soil are legal, without regard to where the parents came from, providing the appropriate import license is possessed by a buyer in the USA. Then Brazil raised a fuss with the USFW to close that loophole by saying the tarantulas born in Europe from illegally collected parents should be illegal to.

 

[Tim Benzedrine]

This thread got me to thinking about crested geckos. As some of you probably know, the crested gecko was thought to be extinct in New Calcedonia until it was rediscovered in 1994. Some were taken from the wild before it (rightfully so) became illegal to do so. But now, crested geckos are among the most common and most commonly kept and bred lizards in captivity, virtually ensuring that they will continue to exist. Sometimes, the pet trade can be a good thing for certain species. This also probably created the lack of need for crested to be removed from their natural habitat, though I suppose that it could be beneficial for a number of them to be legally exported in order to diversify the genetics, maybe. By that, I don't mean collected and exported, but bred and then sent to responsible breeders abroad. Sort of like the example of B. hamorii mentioned earlier in the thread.

This isn't particularly relevant, and probably not comparable to the issue of the spider being discussed, it just reminded me of the case of the cresteds.

 

[Olan]

These two bits of information from the USFW department still don't clarify the legality of the situation encountered by Palp Friction as described in the linked Facebook post. According to the short summary of the Lacey Act and the e-mail from USFW, T. seladonia collected and exported from Brazil in violation of their law is in turn illegal to import to the USA and the offspring of those specimens after making it to the USA are also illegal.

So, if T. seladonia were illegally collected and exported from Brazil to a European country then those same illegally collected specimens were to be imported from Europe to the USA, those T. seladonia would be illegal in the USA. That would be more like laundering illegally captured wildlife.

BUT, that isn't what happened in the Palp Friction case. How I understand what Palp Friction ran into was that the illegally collected T. seladonia were never imported to the USA from Europe and bred in captivity. To my understanding, the illegally collected Brazilian tarantulas were imported to some country in Europe, bred in captivity, and the offspring were the ones stopped by USFW to the surprise of Palp Friction who followed the wildlife importation laws of the USA. The surprise in the Palp Friction case was that the actual specimens that were illegally collected were never sent to the USA.

I haven't yet seen anything official from the USFW department that clearly states how Palp Friction violated USFW laws and regulations by importing the offspring of T. seladonia from Europe.

It would seem that European tarantula smugglers have been exploiting a loophole in the USFW wildlife importation law where tarantulas born and residing on European soil are legal, without regard to where the parents came from, providing the appropriate import license is possessed by a buyer in the USA. Then Brazil raised a fuss with the USFW to close that loophole by saying the tarantulas born in Europe from illegally collected parents should be illegal to.

My understanding is that species illegally taken from the wild in Brazil and then bred, whether that breeding is in Brazil, Europe, USA, on a boat in international waters, etc., would be illegal to buy or sell in the USA.

 

[Vanessa]

Going to follow this closely since I just had a G. pulchra sling die in pre-molt and it would break my heart not to be able to get another...

Grammostola pulchra was in the hobby prior to the current legislation being put in place in Brazil. I'm not sure if it replaced other legislation that banned exports, but, if it didn't, then that is a species who was not illegally exported.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

My understanding is that species illegally taken from the wild in Brazil and then bred, whether that breeding is in Brazil, Europe, USA, on a boat in international waters, etc., would be illegal to buy or sell in the USA.

To protect the wild populations?
Most the big megafauna could be threatened with extinction in a few years, especially rhinos and lions. Question is how do they stop this poaching??? Same thing happens to Ts when logging wipes out a while forest to make a non native crop, or a citi.