Lighting? Yes or No and why?

Bill S

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I'll echo my own thoughts as posted in the thread that preceded this one (and got a bit off topic, as was pointed out) and then probably drop out of the thread. Not much interested in beating dead horses. Tarantulas are a large, diverse group that has been poorly studied in the wild. Very little behavioral work has been done under natural conditions, and most of what we have is purely anecdotal. To try to lump all tarantulas under one behavioral model with almost complete lack of supportive evidence is not terribly useful.

There are enough anecdotal accounts of tarantulas being out and about during the day to assume that they are not all light-intolerant. (One of the few serious behavioral researchers working with tarantulas in the wild in tropical Africa reported that the species he works with basks in the sunlight - and I'll give his observations respect.)

The only tarantulas I've been able to observe regularly in the wild are the Aphonopelma found in southern Arizona, where I live. They are considered to be primarily nocturnal, but I have observed adult females or near-adults outside their burrows in the daytime. And from about mid-July to about mid-October adult males are very commonly seen out wandering around in the daytime. Do the "like" sunlight? I doubt the term "like" even applies to tarantulas. But if even primarily nocturnal species can be diurnal under some natural circumstances, then I'd have to say there is reason to believe that some tarantulas are at least light-tolerant.

Making guesses about natural behavior (and hence "likes and dislikes") based on animals kept under highly artificial conditions is not very valid. Animals will change their behavior in response to the conditions they encounter. Give them abnormal conditions and you'll get abnormal behavior. Putting tarantulas in what we talk ourselves into believing is a "naturalistic" cage is not the same as having them under truly natural conditions. I'f you'll tolerate my using a reptilian example, I'll illustrate.

Before drifting into arachnids my interests were more reptile focused. For many years I've kept rattlesnakes in captivity, and thought I was getting a pretty good understanding of their behavior that way. I kept them in large cages, figuring that was allowing more typical behavior. A few years ago I moved a small group of western diamondbacks into an outdoor enclosure. They are a locally common native species, and the enclosure was in the middle of natural diamondback habitat. During most of the year the enclosure is covered only by light shading cloth, allowing for natural rainfall, wind, daylight cycles, etc. It's planted with desert plants - even the water tank (a cattle tank) has plants from a nearby stream. They have a burrow they hibernate in, hiding places and open areas. Much more natural than the big cages they used to occupy. And surprise!!!! - behavior patterns changed. Even basic things like how they drink water changed. A lot of what I thought I knew under captive conditions had to be revised. But before I could get too carried away with how "natural" my captive outdoor snakes were - a wild adult male western diamondback showed up at my door. Or more accurately, by my porch. He just finished his fourth (fifth? I'll have to look that up)summer living by my porch. He hibernates on the hill north of the house, migrates to the porch in the spring. We get to watch him making his daily rounds, hunting, eating, drinking, dealing with other diamondbacks that appear in his territory, etc. And although the ones I've got in the outdoor enclosure behave more like him than they did when in cages, there is still quite a gap between their behavior and his.

Bringing the focus back on tarantulas - other research projects my wife and I are involved with allow us to incidentally observe the local Aphonopelmas under natural conditions all summer long. And the behaviors we see contradict much of the dogma on how to properly keep them in captivity. For example - keeping them in Kritter Keepers will never tell you how high off the ground they hunt. But we frequently find them climbing brick walls four or five feet up, picking off bugs drawn to lights. And one was observed about ten feet up attempting to grab a pallid bat that was distracted by its own meal. (The bat realized that the tarantula was there at the last moment and flew away just as the tarantula rushed it.) There are many other discrepencies as well.

The same gaps occur between behaviors we observe in other captive tarantulas and tarantulas in nature. And we'll never know how wide those gaps are until we can get some good studies and observations of wild populations. The best we're doing in this thread is making guesses as to how well captive tarantulas respond to light under the artificial conditions we provide. That's a LOT different than knowing whether "tarantulas LIKE light".

So..... If the way you are keeping your tarantulas works for you - fine. enjoy it. But don't bet too heavily that what you are doing really tells you how it is in nature.
 

Kirk

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So..... If the way you are keeping your tarantulas works for you - fine. enjoy it. But don't bet too heavily that what you are doing really tells you how it is in nature.
Nice to see some in situ observations. Great addition, Bill.
 

UrbanJungles

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I
There are enough anecdotal accounts of tarantulas being out and about during the day to assume that they are not all light-intolerant.

re is reason to believe that some tarantulas are at least light-tolerant.

Making guesses about natural behavior (and hence "likes and dislikes") based on animals kept under highly artificial conditions is not very valid. Animals will change their behavior in response to the conditions they encounter. Give them abnormal conditions and you'll get abnormal behavior. Putting tarantulas in what we talk ourselves into believing is a "naturalistic" cage is not the same as having them under truly natural conditions. I'f you'll tolerate my using a reptilian example, I'll illustrate.


Bringing the focus back on tarantulas - other research projects my wife and I are involved with allow us to incidentally observe the local Aphonopelmas under natural conditions all summer long. And the behaviors we see contradict much of the dogma on how to properly keep them in captivity. For example - keeping them in Kritter Keepers will never tell you how high off the ground they hunt. But we frequently find them climbing brick walls four or five feet up, picking off bugs drawn to lights. And one was observed about ten feet up attempting to grab a pallid bat that was distracted by its own meal. (The bat realized that the tarantula was there at the last moment and flew away just as the tarantula rushed it.) There are many other .
I applaud your observations and research efforts Bill but watching Tarantulas scale walls to get closer to insects attracted to artificial lighting on a manmade structure is hardly "naturalistic" behavior.
 

Kirk

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I applaud your observations and research efforts Bill but watching Tarantulas scale walls to get closer to insects attracted to artificial lighting on a manmade structure is hardly "naturalistic" behavior.
It's opportunistic behavior, in reaction to conditions that are, by definition natural. Human activities are not super-natural.
 

Bill S

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I applaud your observations and research efforts Bill but watching Tarantulas scale walls to get closer to insects attracted to artificial lighting on a manmade structure is hardly "naturalistic" behavior.
On the contrary, it's natural if they choose to do it. As far as the tarantula is concerned, that wall is no different than the limestone walls they climb on the hill above the house. We see it as something apart from nature only because we see it as human-made. But all through the animal world human-made structures are accepted as natural. The lizard head-bobbing on a stone wall is being completely natural. The bird building a nest under the eave of a house is being completely natural. The rodent building a nest under a discarded board or sheet of corrugated metal is being completely natural. It's only human esthetics that tempt us to think otherwise.
 

Warren Bautista

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There is no definite way you can tell if a T likes/dislikes light unless you are able to ask the T itself.
 

Sir Legalot

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I have concluded my opinion...

If I would be to light an enclosure, I would try and emulate nature as exactly as possible. and adhering to certain rules, like

1) no direct light, always deflected or diffused.
2) no bright light, see 1).
3) no lighting on the hide, down the hide/hole.
4) only light a portion of the enclosure, say 30% to 40% ?
5) obey the species' natural photoperiod and try and simulate it.
6) do more research.

ie:

a)
G Rosea's are from desert settings, so I would probably only light a portion of the enclosure, for instance an open patch, staying away from the hide but also providing semi-lit hide options and have a wide drinking bowl that shares lit and unlit area. stick to photoperiod.

b)
P. Fasciata's probably live on tree branches, the trunk, or holes in the trunk. So start off by recreating the natural habitat with decor, including leaves, to diffuse the light, again only light a portion of the enclosure, give the animal options, stick to photoperiod.

I personally feel it is something to be experimented with as long as proper research is done, common sense is adhered to and it is done properly.

I would opt for LED lighting, you can file/sand/benchgrind the dome part off of the component to diffuse it, they last, they are cheap, the are low voltage and low risk, they work nicely with hot glue.

Hell maybe I should try this and post photo's of my results and we can see what happens as time goes on?
 

Sir Legalot

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forgot to add that, if in nature, we would rarely see them during daytime, chances are, even with a "environmentally correct" lit enclosure, we would then also rarely see them.
 

Kirk

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There is no definite way you can tell if a T likes/dislikes light unless you are able to ask the T itself.
The standard practice for discerning positive or negative reactions of organisms is experimentation. It's a successful protocol.
 

IrishPolishman

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so to sum things up. Day and night difference is good. Only light a portion of the cage with very indirect light. Make sure there are dark and shady spots in the cage for the Ts to choose.
 

Kirk

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forgot to add that, if in nature, we would rarely see them during daytime, chances are, even with a "environmentally correct" lit enclosure, we would then also rarely see them.
I'm not so sure there's a need to ensure exacting reproductions of lighting as in the wild. We're talking about animals which, for the most part, have been captive bred. Their physiological/behavioral capacities are probably far broader than are required for a specific natural habitat. As such, T's are probably quite adaptable, within reasonable limits that accommodate their wiring.

For instance, a fresh water aquarium housing Brazilian chichlids and tetras is certainly nothing like the environment from which their ancestors were collected. Yet, they appear to function quite well.
 

Sir Legalot

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Good point, I was anticipating that kind of response and have prepared my own! Mwuhahahaha! and it is: Thats why I said "chances are". lol ;)

I agree with you chone1. I just personally feel more comfortable emulating nature first and then experiment to see what the different effects are due to different circumstance.

And if Tarantulas are as instinct and environmental-cue driven as most experienced keepers say they are, they would most likely operate with less stress when those conditions are satisfied.

again, just a thought, and I do believe you still make a very good point.
we will need experimental or scientific conclusions to take this to the next level. what do you think?
 

Kirk

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I agree with you chone1. I just personally feel more comfortable emulating nature first and then experiment to see what the different effects are due to different circumstance.

And if Tarantulas are as instinct and environmental-cue driven as most experienced keepers say they are, they would most likely operate with less stress when those conditions are satisfied.

again, just a thought, and I do believe you still make a very good point.
we will need experimental or scientific conclusions to take this to the next level. what do you think?
No real disagreement from me. As for stress, I'd bet that an organism at the level of a T, that lives to eat, grow, and eventually reproduce, all without getting eaten itself, is probably not too prone to stess under reasonable captive conditions. The successes with breeding would seem to bear that out.

But, I'm all for experimentation, with the goal of better understanding these critters.
 

gambite

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Some of my T's run and hide or stay hunched in a corner when they get a lot of light, while others do not care at all. Overall, I dont think there is any need for direct, dedicated T lighting.
 

Kirk

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I neglected to mention yesterday that when we tend to speak of an organism's niche there are two considerations.

The actual niche in the wild is generally going to be a subset of the potential niche. Organisms have remarkable adaptive plasticity. So it makes sense that what we report of T's in enclosures will not always be reflective of what they're extrinsically constrained to doing under more natural conditions.
 

Buckshot

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The former owner of my B smithi kept her with tube light for 5+ years and she seemed ok with that, but now she don´t have any light because i was told it is :embarrassed: on this forum.
However i will probably buy some sort of light, so i can show my spiders to other people and monitor them better.
 
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