Grammostola Pulchra Pricing

[Andrea82]

@SingaporeB
Just because you're not caught doesn't make what you're doing legal.

'everybody does it so it's fine' doesn't hold up in court either.
The people who download from TPB are doing that illegally, no matter if it's two or two million people.

And let's for a moment not think about fines or jailtime... You know what happens to the spiders you imported illegally?
They are killed.

Not worth it for me. And encouraging new keepers to do things illegally is putting them at risk for repercussions. All that only because you want to be right and don't care about laws and rules.

 

[SingaporeB]

What about Sven Koppler, then?

I've already mentioned this guy. He is apart of the Ken The Bug Guy/Paul Becker case. Ken (US dealer) rated on Paul (US dealer) and Paul flipped on Sven Koppler.

There are ZERO cases of a hobbyist importing spiders via the mail and being arrested/fined by US authorities.

 

[Venom1080]

I've already mentioned this guy. He is apart of the Ken The Bug Guy/Paul Becker case. Ken (US dealer) rated on Paul (US dealer) and Paul flipped on Sven Koppler.

There are ZERO cases of a hobbyist importing spiders via the mail and being arrested/fined by US authorities.

I imagine you'll try your best to be the first then.

 

[miss moxie]

I imagine you'll try your best to be the first then.

We all have goals.

 

[pocock1899]

I've already mentioned this guy. He is apart of the Ken The Bug Guy/Paul Becker case. Ken (US dealer) rated on Paul (US dealer) and Paul flipped on Sven Koppler.

There are ZERO cases of a hobbyist importing spiders via the mail and being arrested/fined by US authorities.

Well, actually you are wrong. Laughably so, on many things. Do you always assume that just because you don't know about something, ...that it doesn't exist?

Obviously, you don't know the facts of the Sven Koppler case. You don't even seem to know what was published in the news media.
Yes, hobbyists have been fined and their shipments seized.

Why would you think that so many people have broken the law for so long, and been completely ignored by law enforcement? USFWS Wildlife Inspectors and Special Agents, along with WSPS Postal Inspectors are just such fanboys of the tarantula hobby, that they have given it carte blanche? Really??

Apparently, your degree in Google University is inadequate for real fact finding. In order to really know about the kinds of cases you're referring to, ones that were not published in mainstream media (which is like 99%), you need to get the facts directly from the parties involved. Very few have done jail time, but more than a few have lost shipments and paid fines.

Additionally, they all got a criminal record to show off on their next job interview!!

If you aren't acquainted with someone involved in the cases, you're probably going to have to submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to the USFWS or DOI to get the information. Even at that, if it's part of a larger, ongoing investigation (which it usually is), you may not get access to the information.
All of law enforcement prefers to use lower level individuals to get to the upper echelons. The Koppler case was a perfect example. There are others.

I very much doubt that the lower level folks are going to be posting on Arachnoboards or Facebook, how they took a deal and turned in their friends and acquaintances ...just to save their own butts.

And I've no doubt, you'll want me to name names and supply examples. Too bad.
I'm not throwing people under the bus for your edification, especially since you've been such a know-it-all jerk. If you really want to know the facts, do your own homework.
I think most people know who is who.

I think people who brown box or import illegally SHOULD get caught. I work in import/export, right alongside USFWS. I'm always glad to see them doing their job. Most of the smuggled animals I see are dead or dying.
No sympathy here for anyone who thinks they are above the law, who looks at animals just as dollar signs and is more concerned with making money than taking care of their livestock.

 

[SingaporeB]

Obviously, you don't know the facts of the Sven Koppler case. You don't even seem to know what was published in the news media.

And I've no doubt, you'll want me to name names and supply examples. Too bad.
.

Yeah, I do know the facts about the Ken The Bug Guy/Paul Becker/Sven Koppler case. Those details were - probably still are - on this site and I read through the whole thing including court documents.

No one can produce even one example of someone who was popped for importing tarantulas for their personal collection because it has never happened.

Also, me thinks you and others in this thread doth protest too much.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I've already mentioned this guy. He is apart of the Ken The Bug Guy/Paul Becker case. Ken (US dealer) rated on Paul (US dealer) and Paul flipped on Sven Koppler.

There are ZERO cases of a hobbyist importing spiders via the mail and being arrested/fined by US authorities.

My question for you is this.

Q: He (Sven Koppler) was, or wasn't, arrested? This and only this is important, not the outcome of all of that and how he eventually managed to deal with the situation. For which reason he was arrested, if what he was doing wasn't so much of a big deal?

You know, where I think you are in error is in the fact that seems (seems) that no one, here, is able to find a valid source for that, for someone ended in trouble (no matter with which kind of punishment, now... ain't an expert but I think no one will give death penalty to someone for that) for importing, illegally, spiders or whatever invert in the nation.

The fact that no one so far provided a legit source, however, doesn't means that never happened something like that... who knows if, in Montana (ah ah Cartman btw!) someone was spotted and ended to pay $1000 or else as a fine for that an helluva of time ago?

Those kind of 'news' are garbage, doesn't hit the main dinner time TV zombie news, but mostly a crappy dorky newspaper readed by 5 people

Another thing to consider (which can help your point of view on this subject ah ah) is this: they (the system) need to prove everything, not an easy task like seems when we talking, sometimes.

Example: what if, this morning, I decide to ship a Theraphosidae (without saying nothing) to a real U.S name/surname/address I know? Don't view this as idiocy and consider only this bizarre example alone:

I pay everything, from the spider to the shipping. Everything. Obviously, using (on my part) a freaking false identity.
The parcel end spotted by the U.S customs. Obviously the one that risk is the American "customer", for that the sender doesn't exist. But said he/she American 'customer' ordered nothing, and wasn't even aware of that, at the end.
No one can prove he/she payed/ordered that, no? Am I wrong?

= parcel confiscated and probably destroyed, bye bye spider, and nothing to the innocent and unaware U.S recipient that probably no one will ever call.

The same can happens if (another pretty bizarre example) an American citizen ship to an Italian real address those kinda Cold Steel (CA) or United Cutlery (GA) 'combat/war ready' swords (illegal as hell in Italy unless someone doesn't have the permit for keep weapons). Well they arrive here, the custom block the whole parcel, and... nothing to the Italian man! Because no one can prove with legit facts and evidence that he ordered those swords. There isn't the 'smoking gun' for take actions.

Combined with the fact that, let's be honest, to control (in a proper way) every parcel would be impossible, no matter the technology used. Impossible, unless we want to reduce to zero the unemployement rate paying people only for that, since senders expects to view their parcels delivered as soon as possible, always.

 

[pocock1899]

Yeah, I do know the facts about the Ken The Bug Guy/Paul Becker/Sven Koppler case. Those details were - probably still are - on this site and I read through the whole thing including court documents.

No one can produce even one example of someone who was popped for importing tarantulas for their personal collection because it has never happened.

Also, me thinks you and others in this thread doth protest too much.

LOL!!! So you think the best source of "facts" is an internet forum? Really?
And, ...just because YOU have never seen/read about someone busted for smuggling, ...that means it has never, ever happened.
Are you serious?

Since you like quotes, how about one from Euripides?
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.""

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I stand with what I've said.

I think that (mostly) happened/happens this:

- The (U.S) customers parcels aren't spotted by the U.S customs, because to control (and well) everything is out of question. Thus they arrive, DOA or not inside.

- But if happens (you never know, at the end) inside the parcel there's only a foreign language (lol) papers, and one (or two, or else) Theraphosidae well packed. Nothing else. No 'official' documentation, PayPal (yeah...) receipt, nothing. Only normal papers, packaging material, and the evil spooder/s

There isn't therefore the 'smoking gun', a real connection between 'point A' (the seller) and 'point B' (the U.S customer). Yeah, in the case of drugs, weapons etc is another story, but I think that with a situation like that, the parcel, simply, end destroyed.

Without no one knowing nothing.

I think this, in all honesty.

P.S

Despite my (personal) view, just a reminder to the reader: 'brown boxing' is, and remain, illegal.

 

[Swoop]

There are 5,000 murders a year in the US. How many do you hear about? Maybe a hundred?

What makes you think someone getting fined or arrested for violating postal regulations is ever going to be sexy enough to beat 'if it bleeds it leads'? Speeding too much can be a felony but when was the last time you saw an article about a guy going to jail for doing 90 in a school zone?

A lack of evidence is not proof. We can prove it is against the law, we can prove what happens to importers, we can prove what happens to confiscated animals, we can speculate about the effects on the hobby, but what we can't do is prove it's safe OR dangerous to the hobbyist.

If your argument is "it's probably fine for the hobbyist" in the face of all the other downsides, you don't actually have an argument.

On top of that, think of the repercussions (to the buyer and the hobby) if customs opens up a package with a nasty OW inside and someone gets bit. Hospitalizing federal agents doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

[SingaporeB]

There are 5,000 murders a year in the US. How many do you hear about? Maybe a hundred?

What makes you think someone getting fined or arrested for violating postal regulations is ever going to be sexy enough to beat 'if it bleeds it leads'? Speeding too much can be a felony but when was the last time you saw an article about a guy going to jail for doing 90 in a school zone?
.

Yes, all exotic animal story possibilities make the news and are easily searchable years later on the web.

You can bet your your life that no hobbyist in the USA has ever been popped for so-called "brown boxing". If that ever happens you will hear about it on here and the story will be searchable for many, many years, possibly until the end of human existence.

 

[Swoop]

Yes, all exotic animal story possibilities make the news and are easily searchable years later on the web.

We have bite reports on this forum of people being bitten and hospitalized by 10" old world T's. How many made the news? Probably zero. If you're being sarcastic that would only support my point, so you must be serious. But if you're serious, you're laughably wrong that a hobbyist going to jail could expect to be a significant (or even insignificant) news story.

How many people are going to self-report to arachnoboards that they got busted and went to jail smuggling spiders? Again, probably zero.

You're also ignoring all of the downsides to the T's and other hobbyists and businesses, as if the only important criteria for a decision is how it will affect you.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

We have bite reports on this forum of people being bitten and hospitalized by 10" old world T's. How many made the news? Probably zero.

Yes, indeed. You are 100% right. This is another huge difference among an helluva of others between my nation (Italy) and USA.

I have a theory for this (could be wrong, uh).

In the U.S, 'you' are the one that, basically, pay for the support/health care/help/whatever received.

In Italy that's completely free, from E.R visits to hospital. Yeah, sure, we pay taxes for mantain that but, for instance, the first tramp of the street (like the Italian counterparts of 'Street Trash' movie) obviously doesn't pay taxes: still he/she receive for free as well the medical help, no matter.

I 100% know that, in the case of bites (due to talking with other keepers, I was never bitten in 25 years by a Theraphosidae -- true spider yes lol --) etc here, 'you' have to pray that Docs say nothing, because isn't written at all that they would remain silent = next morning in the paper, chances of national TV as well if the system decide that the quite crappy, boring story is enough for deceive, instead of talking about serious stuff

 

[SingaporeB]

We have bite reports on this forum of people being bitten and hospitalized by 10" old world T's. How many made the news? Probably zero.

1) How many bite reports are fake? Possibly over half. Recently some clown posted a video on the forum of what he claimed was an OBT biting him. Obviously fake yet many people argued with me that it was real so many here are easily fooled.

2) Tarantula bites are never fatal nor do they leave physical damage behind. Do bee stings make the news?

3) Hospitals do not call the media and inform on patients, cops do. Cops always call the media with anything they think might interest them. Cops have even been fired for being paid media sources.

Animal stories are like weather stories, the corporate media loves them. People left on the sidewalk? People evicted from their home? People committing suicide from despair? The corporate media will do most anything to avoid such topics.

Tens of thousands of Americans are killing themselves every year with opioids out of despair and the corporate media went out of their way for many, many years to cover that fact up.

I'm not the one here who needs to get his priorities straight.

 

[Swoop]

You're arguing from ignorance, again. Ignoring what we do know and basing your conclusion on what we don't know.

Also, in the same post you claim that cops inform the media and also that cops get punished for informing the media.

And calling tarantula smuggling an animal story, as if "man arrested for buying a spider" is going to conpete for views with "squirrel can waterski and do basic math" lmao. I was having a crummy morning but you have lifted my spirits with your shenanigans.

Now git before I tell your parents what a Singapore Blue bite is like.

As for suicides and etc, you're on a tarantula forum dude. Read the room.

 

[SingaporeB]

You're arguing from ignorance, again. Ignoring what we do know and basing your conclusion on what we don't know.

Also, in the same post you claim that cops inform the media and also that cops get punished for informing the media.

And calling tarantula smuggling an animal story, as if "man arrested for buying a spider" is going to conpete for views with "squirrel can waterski and do basic math" lmao. I was having a crummy morning but you have lifted my spirits with your shenanigans.

Now git before I tell your parents what a Singapore Blue bite is like.

If I'm ignorant it's the fault of the other posters in this thread. I have from the beginning requested evidence and none of you have provided any. Launching ad hominem attacks spiked with straw man arguments cannot increase anyone's knowledge.

People rob banks and people are punished for robbing banks. Your point is?

 

[Swoop]

'Argument from ignorance' means you are basing your argument on what we don't know, instead of on what we know. You have the same information as any of us. It's not about you or me being more ignorant of facts than the other, it's that we see bad + unknown and conclude bad. You see bad + unknown and conclude good.

An ad hominem would be 'you are stupid, therefore you are wrong.' If you are wrong to an extent that someone calls you stupid, that's not an ad hominem, it's merely an insult.

Also, what's the incentive for a cop to tell the media he busted a hobbyist for ordering a spider through the mail? It's unusual but hardly scandalous. It's just another example of risk vs. practically no reward. Lots of risks with smuggling a G. pulchra, not much reward. Some risk blabbing to the media about arresting someone for smuggling spiders, no reward. So why are your arguments based on "people will deliberately act against their own interest"?

I don't know why I'm doing this the hard way.

Pro:
1. There is a small chance you can acquire a rare spider with a reasonable cost of time/money

Cons:
1. There is a good chance an international animal smuggler is going to scam you.
2. There is a good chance your spider will die in transit (even reputable domestic dealers rarely offer LAG after 1 or 2 days).
3. There is a high chance your spider will be misidentified in regards to species, gender, size/maturity.
4. There is a small chance your spider will be found and killed by customs.
5. There is a tiny chance your package will be opened and you will be fined/jailed for illegal animal smuggling.

SingaporeB, why are you ignoring all the other potential negative outcomes and only focused on Con #5?

 

[dragonfire1577]

You all are treading on thin ice, arguing like that will attract a... sea bear. It's a little known fact they hate people hijacking a thread on arachnoboards and arguing about the same thing for more than one page after both sides made their point even more than they hate playing the clarinet badly, Waving your flashlight back and forth really fast, Stomping the ground (they take it as a challenge), Eating cubed cheese; sliced is safe, wearing a hoop skirt, wearing clown shoes, and wearing a sombrero in a goofy fashion. Y'all had better draw some sea bear circles, it's the only defense against a sea bear attack.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

1) How many bite reports are fake? Possibly over half. Recently some clown posted a video on the forum of what he claimed was an OBT biting him. Obviously fake yet many people argued with me that it was real so many here are easily fooled.

2) Tarantula bites are never fatal nor do they leave physical damage behind. Do bee stings make the news?

3) Hospitals do not call the media and inform on patients, cops do. Cops always call the media with anything they think might interest them. Cops have even been fired for being paid media sources.

1) While I do agree with you that certain bite reports we can 24/7 easily read here were probably a bit exaggerated, you are wrong about @Shampain88 'OBT' bite. I fail to realize why you don't believe that, considering also that he was a huge reckless handler (Asian 'pedes on the arm etc). Fooled, you said. There's nothing transcendental... only someone that, on pure purpose, pissed off a P.murinus and asked for a bite.

2) 100% correct about T's venom. Bee sting comparison a bit silly. Bees are since forever viewed as 'social accepted' animals for the average, T's aren't. I fail to realize why people doesn't understand this freaking easy concept

3) In the U.S, probably. Here in Italy, no. Docs can call the cops for everything, if they want: from drugs to whatever. And they can.

 

[SingaporeB]

1) While I do agree with you that certain bite reports we can 24/7 easily read here were probably a bit exaggerated, you are wrong about @Shampain88 'OBT' bite. I fail to realize why you don't believe that, considering also that he was a huge reckless handler (Asian 'pedes on the arm etc). Fooled, you said. There's nothing transcendental... only someone that, on pure purpose, pissed off a P.murinus and asked for a bite.
.

One of the most amateurish attempts at faking a bite that anyone could make. There is no bite on camera and the "blood"looks faker than ketchup. That video looks like an obvious joke that was shockingly taken seriously. I can't believe the producer of that video bite imagined that someone would take the video to be real.