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Fat tailed scorpions getting rare now?

Discussion in 'Scorpions' started by Newports, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. Newports

    Newports Arachnobaron Old Timer

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    So I used to buy fat tailed scorpions from people on here with no problems as they were usually on sale in the classifieds.

    I did notice over the years they were becoming less and less common but now it seems there's absolutely no one selling fat tailed scorpions anymore...

    Even the more common A. Australis.

    Just last night I discovered my 4i-5i A. Bicolor was dead. No idea why it was plump and well fed.

    The only fat tail or scorpion for that matter that I have left is an adult A. Mauritanicus that I've had since 2i for about the last 4-5 years.

    I remember a couple years back reading up on how laws were going to get more strict on importing fat tails(androctonus and parabuthus)

    So am I right or is it just been dry?
     
  2. Patcho

    Patcho Arachnosquire

    So the problem is people don't breed enough scorpions to keep their captive populations steady. Compared to the tarantula hobby, scorpions have shorter overall lifespans, smaller broods, and less enthusiasts that breed them. Let's say I bought an Androctonus baluchicus pair, mated them, and the female has a brood of 35. Then I sell them all -- since it was a rare species, I had the price pretty high for individual sales, so most people buy them in singles or doubles. The likelihood of every baby making it to adulthood is slim -- even more so, the likelihood that every person who purchased more than one has a mating pair is even more slim. That is why if you have a rare scorpion you should always invest your money to breed it ON YOUR OWN, and save that generation for yourself to breed it again in the future.

    I believe in breeding for passion, not for money.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
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  3. Galapoheros

    Galapoheros ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    It seems to me the hobby in general is in a slump, publicly at least. I still have andro Ms and P. trans but don't post much about them anymore.
     
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  4. Patcho

    Patcho Arachnosquire

    Well, see, that's the thing. They're all out there. People have them, but they don't breed them, and they eventually just die off.
     
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  5. Galapoheros

    Galapoheros ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    Yes, especially when interest declines. I do breed them however, I have about 40 P. trans that are adult now, about 50 mauritanicus, 40 ankarana, etc. I've been doing it as you describe for some years now, but yes, most people don't do that. On top of that, I'm not motivated to sell but often do when people ask. I often take overflow to a local store here. I would rather trade for something else I want but there's not much more that I want.
     
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  6. Patcho

    Patcho Arachnosquire

    From what I've seen, tarantula breeders will often breed for money. It's actually quite sad. Someone will buy a couple babies, and turn around, sell them for a profit when they get bigger, then those will get sold off, the males will be sold off or traded for something else, and when they're bred, it's sell, sell, sell!

    And here I am, watching all these transactions happening and I'm thinking to myself "Geez, doesn't anybody treat these guys like pets?" A word I often hear people say to describe their attitude toward their inverts is "respect," but how can one contend that they have said respect for these creatures if all they're doing is treating them like a commodity, not a pet?

    All I'm saying is, you see more of this in the tarantula hobby, not the scorpion hobby. Because scorpion enthusiasts don't buy their scorpions, then turn around and sell them for a profit once they've molted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  7. ShredderEmp

    ShredderEmp Arachnoprince

    I think this is how it was going with Pandinus imperator. They used be as low as sixteen dollars, but now someone has them for 70. The sellers are trying to make money and such as all of you were saying. For example, I bought a pair of Rhopalurus crassicauda, and was told they were male and female. I then learned after the larger female at the other that both were actually females. I got lied to, and when I brought it up to the person I bought from, he gave the response that its hard to sex them and if I paid him just a little but more, then he would send me the last one. I have a brood of Centruroides gracilis, but I have been told that they take forever to sell, and so I have decided its better just to keep them and then sell them off before college. I expect the numbers of Centruroides gracilis to dip a little because they are so common right now. Same thing has happened with Pandinus imperator too. They were so common that beginners would buy them, not breed them, and then move on. I think was starting to happen a little bit with Centruroides gracilis because they were so common and cheap.
     
  8. I bought an M. balfouri sling for 90, I could *easily* sell it for 120 right now as is. I think that is a waste. If I want to even think of making money, I will breed it. If it is a female, I will keep a few but sell the rest, male, I do a 50/50, either way, I still keep some to have for a while. I do plan on breeding it, I do plan on making money, my main point though is to breed it for the fun of it and to get more to keep for myself. People should *just* focus on the monetary value of a tarantula, there are many other points to look at.
     
  9. gromgrom

    gromgrom Arachnoprince

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    I've posted my experiences and the facts behind this on numerous topics but let's go here again

    Androctonus are rarer now because Ken and his ilk who imported the sub's and adults year after year aren't seeing the same ROI that they used to. Scorpions are in a slump because they kept importing the same thing over and over. And hell, it doesn't help scorpions don't have a novelty attached to them like tarantulas so the hobby is a fraction of the size of the tarantula hobby. Secondly, scorpions actually take some time to care for them. Most tarantulas can go weeks without much food or water and be fine at room temp. Scorpions are all different and require some special care, care which the importers do not care to heed or learn from the people they sell to or buy from (trust me, ive tried, they really couldnt care less), because if they did care, they wouldnt murder 2is and actually be selling them! Scorpions need fed more often due to their higher metabolisms (which explains partially their shorter lifespans) and speaking of lifespans, those importers will commonly get sick or old adults that just croak that eat into their bottom line.

    And lastly, with the brownboxing craze in full swing (especially over on scorpion forum), no one is buying domestically, even if the same rare species are being offered. I saw a guy buy jayakari from vixvy for the same price per specimen my friend was selling them for. Why? Did he not see the ad? Regardless, there is also a craze of on the hobby: everyone is brownboxing trying to be the first to do x or y, and killing them because they didn't know what they were getting themselves into. Its cool to prove yourself and make some cash and feel that excitement, but don't make your specimens suffer because you are too prideful to accept help or realize you are over your head. Ive done that multiple times when I first started in the hobby, and hell lately with ghost mantises until I got the trick down to keeping them alive. So just so you know I'm not just posting to point fingers, I can tear myself down as well for some of the same crimes. The difference is learning to accept you're not perfect and get help!

    Another is the folk who buy 1-3 of a species and request they be sexed. I'm sorry, but even with those numbers you can easily fail. Try buying a bakers dozen. You'll have sexed pairs, and backup specimen in case you lose some to poor care/acts of god/bad molts. Not every specimen is a strong one. You can never know. Next, because of this "tarantula keeper mentality" as I refer to it, of buying a single specimen or two, you're unable to breed them on your own if you lost your only male or female. Uh oh! This hobby is not as large as the T hobby and people need to understand that. We can't easily do breeding loans, or just wait a week or two for a MM to pop up for sale. You are largely responsible for all of your success and failures, and through your purchase of multiple specimens, you can ensure a greater chance of success and help the hobby survive

    It's all about percieved value vs how common they are. No one wants to buy Tityus stigmurus or Centrurorides gracilis because they are so common now you have to give them away. Therefore, the market is over saturated and no one wants to buy something with no perceived value when most hobbyists view every specimen with a dollar amount , rather than their own enjoyment. Its good to have a mix of both. I once received a valuable piece of advice I will share here regarding even common species: "pretend these are the last of this species you can get. No brownboxing. Treat them as such in spite of their low value in the market, or how common they are", and with that, you can make your mind treat everything the best you can.

    And finally, I've seen plenty of Androctonus australis for sale still. Problem is again there hasn't been a import so its mostly older WC adults or cbb sub's and juvies. I've got a 3.3 of Australis and a 6.7 of bicolor currently but they're all (but one lone mm) still 6i or so. And even after they molt this summer I still have maybe almost a year before I produce and get some scorplings to market. Its a hobby that rewards patience and diligence. Stay the course

    Apologies for the rant. This is my opinion, based on years of observations and discussions with esteemed members of the community and some of the bigger breeders in the states.

    Hopefully we can turn the hobby around. Best way to do so is responsible purchases and breeding! Breed it all, and don't dump them or give them away! Allow them to have a market value that is sustainable and encourages other new hobbyists to invest. That's how we can grow to be like the tarantula hobby (albiet with less derp)

    Thank you for your time. Keep your stick on the ice

    Dustin
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
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  10. Newports

    Newports Arachnobaron Old Timer

    What???? Emps are being sold for 70 dollars now!!??

    ---------- Post added 06-21-2014 at 03:10 PM ----------

    Anyways anyone have any a. Australis, a. Mauris, a. Bicolor or any andros for sale let me know please.
     
  11. gromgrom

    gromgrom Arachnoprince

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    Yep check ken's site
     
  12. Newports

    Newports Arachnobaron Old Timer

    Lol wow...
     
  13. Patcho

    Patcho Arachnosquire

    I agree with every word grom said, especially the third paragraph about the "tarantula keepers mentality." Good show, my friend. Jolly good show.
     
  14. Beary Strange

    Beary Strange Arachnodemon

    I get this issue as well, except it's the Hadogenes I'm not having any luck finding.

    Now, this is just my two cents as I'm still new to scorpions and come from the tarantula side of the hobby that you all are apparently very, ahem, fond of. But have you considered maybe it's the, admittedly greedy and off-base, attitude of "Oh I'll breed tarantulas and become a millionare!" that results in most species in the hobby being readily available nearly year round? Most who come into the hobby and start trying to breed for money find out real fast that they can't make nearly as much off them as they think and in fact, most of the time you're offered trades if anything at all. Lots of people find themselves sitting on loads of slings for ages. No one is rolling in money from breeding tarantulas and yet, more people are breeding for this reason everyday, resulting in more and more available slings. Perhaps if more people where under the impression they could make bank from scorpions, more people would be breeding them? No, it's not a great reason to do so, but the point is those scorplings will be there. Again, just something to consider.
     
  15. Newports

    Newports Arachnobaron Old Timer

    Mind telling me where and who?

    thanks

    btw I apologize if you felt annoyed at having to explain your thoughts on this matter. I barely, rarely ever come on here any more. I check in maybe 1-3 times a year. Have been too busy with life and scorpions aren't my main passion anymore as I got older.

    But I still do love them.


    EDIT: NEVERMIND. Searched the classifieds.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  16. Galapoheros

    Galapoheros ArachnoGod Old Timer

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    I think your right there Belle, probably hitting closer to reality when it comes to humans in general. If there were more demand, there would higher prices, so more breeding. I'd like to believe the idealistic stuff but it's not that way for most people. I do it because I'm interested in it, been interested in inverts since I've had a memory. People aren't going to breed stuff to give away, and if they do, they won't do it for very long. But, this may be exactly what happens, like with what recently happened to P. imperator. Supply down, demand goes up, interest goes up simply because of "rarity", so it starts over again.
     
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  17. telepatella

    telepatella Arachnoknight

    ^Yes, basic economics and human psychology, I agree with this opinion. And, I get a special joy (so pun intended) when one of my critters is - or may be gravid. My aim is not to gain financially however. I actually enjoy sharing my bugs with my hobbyfriends, we share and share alike and I like that - I'm lucky.

    I have a A. australis, and it suddenly seems more valuable:happy:. How does that fit in with psychoeconomics (I just made that word - you're welcome)?
     
  18. Koh_

    Koh_ Arachnoangel Old Timer

    you guys are at least lucky to have local scorpions and some hobbyists / few importers.
    Canada? some ppl here keep p. imperator(* let's say emperor scorpions) in desert setup. That says all. haha
     
  19. Newports

    Newports Arachnobaron Old Timer

    Poor emps :(
     
  20. KDiiX

    KDiiX Arachnobaron

    Exactly, it says so much. At least that many people don't know much about their critters even though they think they do. Emperors which are in hobby where collected in savannah areas which are better comparable to deserts than to rainforests. Of course a dry and super hot setup isn't good for them, but the same with a super wet and unheated set up I often see on the other hand.
    To say "desert set ups" for emperor are in general bad, because they kept on sand, is just a sign for a lack of knowledge where and how they life in nature, especially those specimen which come into the hobby.

    But that's a thing we already discussed in the R.garridoi thread...

    Btw it's good that at least some of you noticed that buying single scorpions isn't a possibility if you try to keep them alive for more than just a few years. But actually it doesn't start at the buying end. If you don't sell juveniles especially unsexed single people have to buy more than just one. For example if I sell scorpions buyers always have to take at least 5 specimen if they are young and unsexed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014