Can you shock a T so badly it dies?

[spodermin]

Y

Yes but I still walk fine without the need of a prosthetic

Hobble around on that pig benis of yours eh?

 

[Tenebrarius]

That is precisely the definition of the biological capacity for fear

>implying inverts have emotional responses rather than instinctual responses

 

[spodermin]

>implying inverts have emotional responses rather than instinctual responses

Same thing man. Now would you like to dichotomize the entire animal kingdom to tell me exactly where consciousness starts and stops, assuming there is no spectrum whatsoever?

Emotional responses = instinctual responses

 

[Tenebrarius]

spectrum whatsoever

your assuming I dont think it's a spectrum. I think, however, there is a difference between being conscious to your environment and being conscious to yourself.

lots of animals have emotions, like dogs and cows.

I am not saying they are stupid, I am just saying they are better optimized and dont require superfluous extensions as feelings and emotions.

Same thing man

not really. if so then please direct me to the angsty depressed tarantulas I would like to see them.

also "distinguished from reasoning and knowledge."

"a belief"

"mood"

"relationship"

 

[spodermin]

your assuming I dont think it's a spectrum. I think, however, there is a difference between being conscious to your environment and being conscious to yourself.

lots of animals have emotions, like dogs and cows.

I am not saying they are stupid, I am just saying they are better optimized and dont require superfluous extensions as feelings and emotions.


not really. if so then please direct me to the angsty depressed tarantulas I would like to see them.

also "distinguished from reasoning and knowledge."

"a belief"

"mood"

"relationship"

So you think only animals that self recognize can experience emotion, but cite non self recognizing animals of bearers of emotion in the same sentence?

So you think a tarantulas reasoning and knowledge skills are more advanced than its instinctive responses?

Is the word "moody" not commonly used to describe animals in this hobby that are docile one day and aggressive the next with no notable changes to their environment?

You're getting hung up on the wrong points here man. By definition the have emotions. Whether or not they experience those emotions the same way as animals possessing higher consciousness is arbitrary.

 

[Tenebrarius]

So you think only animals that self recognize can experience emotion, but cite non self recognizing animals of bearers of emotion in the same sentence?

no I never said that at all. I simply say without a limbic system emotions cannot be formed.

So you think a tarantulas reasoning and knowledge skills are more advanced than its instinctive responses?

no not at all. Again never said that.

A tarantula probably cannot excogitate at all especially without a neocortex.

I think a tarantula is entirely instincts.

Is the word "moody" not commonly used to describe animals in this hobby that are docile one day and aggressive the next with no notable changes to their environment?

no it's not, and if it is, that is anthropomorphizing. The accurate response if the animal is being defensive due to exterior stimuli.

You're getting hung up on the wrong points here man. By definition the have emotions. Whether or not they experience those emotions the same way as animals possessing higher consciousness is arbitrary.

sure they could exhibit certain behaviors we would confuse for emotion, but it is simply not a reasonable optimization for an animal with so little neurons compared to even the smallest mammals.

A T simply does not have the capacity to anticipate injury or fear like us. What they are doing is a programed response.

show me the angsty depressed T and I will possibly consider Ts are capable of emotion.

 

[spodermin]

I disagree but since the only evidence you'll accept is a visibly depressed spider I'll attempt to convince you no further

 

[Tenebrarius]

It's a hyperbole to the fact of Ts inability to express emotion.

Take that how you will, but I disagree to your position.

 

[MintyWood826]

@Tenebrarius here is a quote of boina on the subject of fear from another thread. I can try to find more if you'd like.

Not again. Didn't you read the papers I linked for you last time? How often do I have to do it?

To state it very clearly: These are your personal opinions and they are in stark contrast to established scientific results. There is clear mainstream scientific evidence that even insects have some kind of 'feelings', so why exactly wouldn't spiders? You don't need 'brain structure' to feel. And 'brain' is just defined morphologically and not functionally. Insects definitely have the chemical pathways needed to feel - that has been proven dozens of times. Why not spiders? In fact, most functions that exist in 'higher' brains have been shown to exist in insect ganglions, too.

Tarantulas most definitely feel stress and very, very likely also fear.

At this point I'm going to assume that you just don't want to accept science because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions.

And again: I've already posted several scientific, peer reviewed papers that support these statements, and tagged you to read them in other threads - I'm not doing it again.

Ok, I'm doing it again: Here is a review article in a highly respected, peer reviewed journal about emotions in invertebrates:

 

[Tenebrarius]

@Tenebrarius here is a quote of boina on the subject of fear from another thread. I can try to find more if you'd like.

no need.

emotions =/= physical stimuli

obviously Ts can feel input stimuli.

but spodermin makes claim to all emotions being being an instinctual reaction, and therefore Ts can then feel angst and depression. BUT that also means hunger is an emotion which it is clearly not.

ok A Ts hunger response is not the emotion of hungry. Let us check if it is: well it has a strong instinctual response to actively attack, kill, and eat.

therefore if you include that into the definition of emotion, and therefore including all "strong reactions to stimuli", including pooping, then I will then proceed to concede.

because that would implicate, Ts are not capable of not all emotions, just simply useful ones. Therefore proving a failure in definition and classification.

 

[spodermin]

@Tenebrarius here is a quote of boina on the subject of fear from another thread. I can try to find more if you'd like.

He has his o

no need.

emotions =/= physical stimuli

obviously Ts can feel input stimuli.

but spodermin makes claim to all emotions being being an instinctual reaction, and therefore Ts can then feel angst and depression. BUT that also means hunger is an emotion which it is clearly not.

ok A Ts hunger response is not the emotion of hungry. Let us check if it is: well it has a strong instinctual response to actively attack, kill, and eat.

therefore if you include that into the definition of emotion, and therefore including all "strong reactions to stimuli", including pooping, then I will then proceed to concede.

because that would implicate, Ts are not capable of not all emotions, just simply useful ones. Therefore proving a failure in definition and classification.

You don't have to be capable of feeling all emotions, particularly complex human ones, or even limbic ones in general, to possess emotions period. The definition of emotion is pretty broad, hence I think the disconnect here.

Our complex emotions are an evolutionary extension of the primitive emotions T's or anything comparable feels.

Octopuses are inverts and it is completely unanimously agreed upon that they have emotions.

As Jordan Peterson says, lobsters respond to antidepressants the same way humans do.

You're getting hung up on part of a definition, and misunderstanding what an emotion is as a result

 

[Tenebrarius]

He has his o


You don't have to be capable of feeling all emotions, particularly complex human ones, or even limbic ones in general, to possess emotions period. The definition of emotion is pretty broad, hence I think the disconnect here.

Our complex emotions are an evolutionary extension of the primitive emotions T's or anything comparable feels.

Octopuses are inverts and it is completely unanimously agreed upon that they have emotions.

As Jordan Peterson says, lobsters respond to antidepressants the same way humans do.

You're getting hung up on part of a definition, and misunderstanding what an emotion is as a result

that is because serotonin inhibitors destabilize predisposed actions/neurological responses. Obviously it will effect a brain that uses the same chemicals in a similar fashion.

I'll concede to a poor definition of emotions. As complex intentional emotions (I.E. Depression and Angst) and simple instinctual ones (I.E. hunger and fear)

This is in using the definition as emotions as an instinctual response to stimuli. It requires a more complex and conscious brain to experience something like angst or depression. Fear is a simple response.

but shock and death from fear are just not possible for a T.

I am conceding tom being wrong due to the complexity of different instinctual responses such as stress. BUT hunger and eating are about the same.

when measuring on the three required criterion I agree fear and stress resemble emotion, based off the definition of it being a strong response to certain stimuli. But so would eating and reproducing and pooping, etc.

how could we classify a distinction between them? or we could just not, hunger would also be an emotion.

would you not agree?

if we agree hunger can classify as an emotion then I will concede to you and decide consensus.

 

[spodermin]

that is because serotonin inhibitors destabilize predisposed actions/neurological responses. Obviously it will effect a brain that uses the same chemicals in a similar fashion.

I'll concede to a poor definition of emotions. As complex intentional emotions (I.E. Depression and Angst) and simple instinctual ones (I.E. hunger and fear)

This is in using the definition as emotions as an instinctual response to stimuli. It requires a more complex and conscious brain to experience something like angst or depression. Fear is a simple response.

but shock and death from fear are just not possible for a T.

I am conceding tom being wrong due to the complexity of different instinctual responses such as stress. BUT hunger and eating are about the same.

when measuring on the three required criterion I agree fear and stress resemble emotion, based off the definition of it being a strong response to certain stimuli. But so would eating and reproducing and pooping, etc.

how could we classify a distinction between them? or we could just not, hunger would also be an emotion.

would you not agree?

if we agree hunger can classify as an emotion then I will concede to you and decide consensus.

Yes I think we are definitely on the same page