A. avic has white mouth crud......

[AudreyElizabeth]

Is this a possible nematode infection? It just popped up today, and while I'm trying to remain calm, its not very easy because I've read too many white mouth crud posts here.....

Wish me luck.....

 

[Code Monkey]

I've had this with an A. avicularia and it did not and does not appear to be related to the nematode infection that keeps us quaking. Based upon my own microscopic examination of the stuff I believe it actually be a yeast infection of sorts.

Buspirone had a G. rosea with the same stuff and actually got a sample off to the REISM; read that thread here. I got the swab kit from Kerry and naturally I've not had another flare-up. Good for me, bad for research.

The key thing to watch for is if the Avic is still eating. With the nematodes, by the time you get the crud coming out of the mouth they cannot eat and usually die within a number of weeks. Whatever this "yeast" is comes and goes and does not stop the T from eating.

 

[AudreyElizabeth]

The Avic ate about four crickets two days ago, and is pretty plump. That being said I feel much better now. I didn't know about the yeast infection. I wonder if it occurs more in wild-caught specimans, or is just something that happens.

I read the REISM thread that you so kindly posted a link to, thanks!!

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by HerpInvertGirl
I wonder if it occurs more in wild-caught specimans, or is just something that happens.

I think it's a "just happens". My afflicted A. avicularia was raised by me from about the 3rd instar, definitely not a WC specimen.

 

[DiStUrBeD-OnE]

Ive seen posts talking about the nematode infection, but is there a website that explains it? or anything to stop it from happening?


Ian

 

[bodisky]

Ian,
We at RIESM want to emphasize something about the nematode in that they posess bacteria symbionts. The
primary infection is bacterial, it is the bacteria that kills the insect or
spider. The nematode is the vector that delivers the bacteria and makes a meal
of the bacteriological digested tissue and the bacteria too. Without the
bacteria the nematode probably can't do too much damage in a spider and
defiantly can not mature or reproduce. The relationship between the two in
amazingly complex and innovative and very often deadly!
Larry has isolated some very nasty bugs, fungus, yeast, bacterial etc...from mouth swabs of sick and healthy T's. The problem is we do not know what is normal and what is not normal. There have been no consistant studies in this area.
RIESM will be posting another update here shortly. We have had to purchase some expensive equipment to ID these "bugs" quicker. We have also redefined what we need in terms of donations or providing assistance with sick tarantulas and I have re-vamped my autopsy lab. Its not finished but its close.
As far as what you can do to help ward off problems is to always practice good husbandry techniques, keep your eyes open to changes and keep decent records. We depend on hobbyists a great deal. Heck, we (RIESM) are all hobbyists! No one person knows everything especially when talking about inverts. All observations are valid and need to be documented regardless of education or experience.
Kerry
Research Institute for Exotic Species Microbiology

 

[DiStUrBeD-OnE]

Originally posted by bodisky
Ian,
We at RIESM want to emphasize something about the nematode in that they posess bacteria symbionts. The
primary infection is bacterial, it is the bacteria that kills the insect or
spider. The nematode is the vector that delivers the bacteria and makes a meal
of the bacteriological digested tissue and the bacteria too. Without the
bacteria the nematode probably can't do too much damage in a spider and
defiantly can not mature or reproduce. The relationship between the two in
amazingly complex and innovative and very often deadly!
Larry has isolated some very nasty bugs, fungus, yeast, bacterial etc...from mouth swabs of sick and healthy T's. The problem is we do not know what is normal and what is not normal. There have been no consistant studies in this area.
RIESM will be posting another update here shortly. We have had to purchase some expensive equipment to ID these "bugs" quicker. We have also redefined what we need in terms of donations or providing assistance with sick tarantulas and I have re-vamped my autopsy lab. Its not finished but its close.
As far as what you can do to help ward off problems is to always practice good husbandry techniques, keep your eyes open to changes and keep decent records. We depend on hobbyists a great deal. Heck, we (RIESM) are all hobbyists! No one person knows everything especially when talking about inverts. All observations are valid and need to be documented regardless of education or experience.
Kerry
Research Institute for Exotic Species Microbiology

Just to sum it up for me, the nematodes make the bacteria in the tarantula and just feed off of the bacterial spots that they started, But how do the nematodes get near the tarantula in the first place? Is it from the bacteria from Molding crickets, or some type of mold or fungus in too wet of a substrate?
Thanks for the information Kerry,

Ian

 

[bodisky]

Hello Ian!
The bacteria live inside the nematode. Simply put, once the nematode gains entry it regurgitates (so to speak) the harmful bacteria. Then the bacteria begins tissue degradation (among other activities) within the unfortunate host like the T. I have several micorscopic pictures of this process. One pic is a nematode is embedded in tissue surrounded by bacterial colonies. I will try to post a few of these pics as soon as I finish up with the birds. Feeding time around here.
As far as entry into the T, well that is a hotly debated topic. All I can tell you is that I have found nematodes in the mouth and surrounding areas, the pumping stomach, around the booklung area, (not in) in the anus and finally and most recently in the cheliceral tissues. I think nematode presence in cheliceral tissue is why we are seeing "fang lock up" as a nematode infestation symptom. IME of course.
As for vector, we dont know yet. I suspect crickets, other prey items or maybe even soil mites. Who knows? That is just another thing we are chasing at the moment.
Thanks for your interest and questions! RIESM hopes to be of more assistance in the future!
Kerry
RIESM

 

[chuck]

does this happen only to arboreals? CM's A.avic and now Herp's A.avic.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by chuck
does this happen only to arboreals? CM's A.avic and now Herp's A.avic.

No, it's not limited to arboreals. Above I linked to a thread about it happening in a G. rosea, last time I checked there weren't many of them in the trees

 

[bodisky]

Originally posted by chuck
does this happen only to arboreals? CM's A.avic and now Herp's A.avic.

A valid question Chuck. Some entomopathogenic nematodes live a part of their lives in substrate. One steinernamitid (nematode bad boy) has been photographed nictating. Nictating means that the worm almost stands on its tail out of the dirt and waves its head around, which presumably increases their chance of contacting the host. So its seems terrestrial T's would be more apt to encounter such a beast. But once again, that is just a thought.
For more info you can also try Google and type in entomopathogenic nematode. There is a wealth of info on these worms as they are used for insect control. I also have a collection of research papers I would be happy to email. Just PM if you want them.
Kerry
RIESM

 

[Buspirone]

My rosie had another flare up last week and I still had a swab so I sent off another sample to Larry Boyd. This time I got the actually paste and not just a simple mouth swab a couple weeks after and a fresh stool sample like last time. My rosie still eats a cricket every two weeks but this last feeding she took two, drinks water(I catch her taking a drink several times a week). She shows no signs of any motor dysfunction or paralysis of the pedipalps and has a rather plump abdomen. The white excretion in her situation occurs a day or two after eating. She's a pet rock most of the time but does get lively if I spend to much time messing around in her cage and begins to pace and wave her pedipalps at me which I consider encouraging. Here's a pic of her sitting with her chelicera spread open wide and the "paste" is present. I took the pic right before I took the last sample.

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Buspirone
My rosie had another flare up last week and I still had a swab so I sent off another sample to Larry Boyd. ... The white excretion in her situation occurs a day or two after eating. ...

That's identical to the symptoms I had with my B. emilia and the A. avicularia that had this stuff. They continued to feed and drank more than usual. After feeding they would have an erruption of the goo. The only potentially life threatening thing that came of this was the emilia couldn't feed for a while because the goo encrusted itself completely over the oral opening but after I cleaned it out with a brush she returned to normal.

If it's any sort of encouragement, it appears that both have recovered completely.

 

[Buspirone]

My *hope* is that maybe it is some type of fungal infection of the mouth, pharynx, esophygus or pumping stomach and that if she ever molts for me the condition will diminish or clear up all together with the new lining. She's such a nice color for a rosie I'd hate to lose her and she's my first T.

 

[bodisky]

Originally posted by Buspirone
My *hope* is that maybe it is some type of fungal infection of the mouth, pharynx, esophygus or pumping stomach and that if she ever molts for me the condition will diminish or clear up all together with the new lining. She's such a nice color for a rosie I'd hate to lose her and she's my first T.

Hey there!
Judging from a previous pic you sent, I think she is one of the prettiest rosies I have ever seen.
Larry is hard at work on the samples. So busy I havent heard from him in a couple of days!
Kerry
RIESM

 

[death66]

this is odd as i was about to post ? on this same subject. my A. avic has these same symptoms. i noticed the goo and was kinda startled, i hope it will be alright!!! my t has also eaten pretty recently (like last week) and it seems to act pretty normal so i will hope that it is not the fatal infection in which you speak.

 

[Botar]

Kerry,

Am I correct in my assumption that nematodes are not mobile? So an infected specimen would not automatically doom an entire collection as long as the substrate was discarded and precautions taken?

Botar

 

[Code Monkey]

Originally posted by Botar
Am I correct in my assumption that nematodes are not mobile? So an infected specimen would not automatically doom an entire collection as long as the substrate was discarded and precautions taken?

Nematodes aren't able to get up and move between cages themselves but they are easily transferred along with any substrate. I keep debating about getting some of those hanging cups of disinfectant like petstores use with their aquarium netting and multiple tongs. Then I could switch between each tank. Of course, I'll probably wait until there's a problem before I get motivated enough

There is also the question of what the vector for their initial introduction is. If it's crickets or other prey, you might have already exposed everybody at the time you fed the symptomatic individual. If it's fungus gnats or phorid flies, then they might be able to be transferred between tanks by their mobile flying butts.

The potential of the nematode/bacteria duo of death is just one more reason to keep your Ts dry in my opinion because, while there might not be anything you can do to prevent a T becoming infected via a prey vector, it will discourage gnats and flies and eliminate any chance of them establishing themselves in the substrate.

 

[bodisky]

Originally posted by Botar
Kerry,

Am I correct in my assumption that nematodes are not mobile? So an infected specimen would not automatically doom an entire collection as long as the substrate was discarded and precautions taken?

Botar

Hello!
Yes you are correct. The nictating behaviour I described earlier is about as mobile as they get. Of course I am talking about entomopathogenic nematodes that are parasitic in their nature. Parasites in general need other living hosts to complete stages of life, to produce and to travel about.
Kerry
RIESM

 

[Buspirone]

Originally posted by atmosphere
In the case of yeast infection has anyone tried monistat 7 ?

I wouldn't be comfortable putting it in my Ts mouth....Why don't you eat a tube first and report back to us.