Your thoughts on tarantula cognition/psychology?

[CoinJar]

I have heard some say that tarantulas have the capacity to recognize and respect their owners like a cat or dog, and some say that they are nothing but a reactionary machine. Where do you stand on this? Do you think that there is any "ghost" behind those eight eyes looking back at you?

I personally stand somewhere in the middle; I don't think there is any high-level conciousness going on, but I do think that they are more than just biological machines. They are clearly capable of some basic emotions like fear, anger, and sexual desire. We also cannot forget that intelligence is not exclusively a trait of mammals; some birds, mollusks and even Arthropods like jumping spiders and bees show signs of advanced problem solving and social order.

It was once believed that only humans had any level of self awareness and social structure, but we then learned that other great apes and aquatic mammals and some birds also exhibited self awareness and social order. Why are some so quick to write off some animals like tarantulas as mindless drones when the same was once believed true of chimps and orcas? Could it be that we are afraid to acknowledge such a thing because it would possibly suggest that all those times we swatted a fly or stomped a roach that we were killing a concious being?

If I had to imagine a tarantulas thought process, I think it would likely be something like this: I feel comfortable, there is no danger around me, now I feel movement, maybe I am in danger, I will fold my legs to protect myself, no it might eat me so I will show it my fangs, oh hey it's something I can eat, I will eat it now, now I am full and comfortable again.

 

[Angel Minkov]

An animal with only a nerve ganglion can't recognize or respect their owners. They're basic animals, living off of basic instincts

 

[Blueandbluer]

It is tempting to write off small animal intelligence just because their brain structures are simple and not at all similar to ours. However, brain function is very poorly understood within our own species, let alone for far-reaching branches. Is it completely out of the question that there could be more function than we would expect in even the simplest, most alien structures? Consider the octopus -- we know without doubt that they are incredibly intelligent; we aren't even able to prove exactly how intelligent. Yet their brain structure is NOTHING like our own, and, for what we understand of neurobiology, seems far undersized for the level of intelligence we have proven to exist, let alone the intelligence that some biologists suspect.

Of course, that opens another door -- what even IS intelligence? Without education, my versi is capable of feats of silk engineering that would make structural engineers cry with envy, but obviously she can't do basic addition, let alone calculus. And do we include emotional intelligence? It used to be thought that no animals had emotion, but science has swung the other way, mostly thanks to dogs and elephants. Could other animals also have emotions but just not express them in ways we can interpret?

Clearly we aren't going to have any Einsteins in the mygale group. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more going on behind those carapaces than many would give them credit for. But, we can't possibly know.

 

[awiec]

It is tempting to write off small animal intelligence just because their brain structures are simple and not at all similar to ours. However, brain function is very poorly understood within our own species, let alone for far-reaching branches. Is it completely out of the question that there could be more function than we would expect in even the simplest, most alien structures? Consider the octopus -- we know without doubt that they are incredibly intelligent; we aren't even able to prove exactly how intelligent. Yet their brain structure is NOTHING like our own, and, for what we understand of neurobiology, seems far undersized for the level of intelligence we have proven to exist, let alone the intelligence that some biologists suspect.

Of course, that opens another door -- what even IS intelligence? Without education, my versi is capable of feats of silk engineering that would make structural engineers cry with envy, but obviously she can't do basic addition, let alone calculus. And do we include emotional intelligence? It used to be thought that no animals had emotion, but science has swung the other way, mostly thanks to dogs and elephants. Could other animals also have emotions but just not express them in ways we can interpret?

Clearly we aren't going to have any Einsteins in the mygale group. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there's more going on behind those carapaces than many would give them credit for. But, we can't possibly know.

An animal with only a nerve ganglion can't recognize or respect their owners. They're basic animals, living off of basic instincts

While I would love to agree with you Blue, I'm going to have to go with Minkov here, there isn't much processing power in that head of theirs, they are very old animals that developed in a world that doesn't exist anymore. True spiders a bit different though, some of them are considered as smart as cats but the whole "recognizing" owners is a bit fetched for them. I've trained some spiders (even had a pamph tap trained for a bit) but in order to train something you need to utilize what they can do, mainly recognizing certain vibrations. What is being asked here is do tarantulas possess domestication qualities and the answer is no, they don't. They will never "recognize" you and if they can, they obviously don't "care" and want you to go away. Jumping spiders are different though, their capacities are still being tested and are considered the "smart" spiders, though I'm not sure if they possess desired domestication abilities. Do we underestimate little animals? Yes we do, hell the smartest arthropod in the world are the mantis shrimps[Stomatopoda] and I can confirm that mine did recognize me as it knew who fed it. Even clown fish are extremely good at keeping time, my female knows exactly what time I'm supposed to feed her. But that is not to say that a tarantula is able to do the same thing as my fish and mantis shrimp can, it's a totally different animal.

 

[Blueandbluer]

While I would love to agree with you Blue, I'm going to have to go with Minkov here, there isn't much processing power in that head of theirs, they are very old animals that developed in a world that doesn't exist anymore. True spiders a bit different though, some of them are considered as smart as cats but the whole "recognizing" owners is a bit fetched for them. I've trained some spiders (even had a pamph tap trained for a bit) but in order to train something you need to utilize what they can do, mainly recognizing certain vibrations. What is being asked here is do tarantulas possess domestication qualities and the answer is no, they don't. They will never "recognize" you and if they can, they obviously don't "care" and want you to go away. Jumping spiders are different though, their capacities are still being tested and are considered the "smart" spiders, though I'm not sure if they possess desired domestication abilities. Do we underestimate little animals? Yes we do, hell the smartest arthropod in the world are the mantis shrimps[Stomatopoda] and I can confirm that mine did recognize me as it knew who fed it. Even clown fish are extremely good at keeping time, my female knows exactly what time I'm supposed to feed her. But that is not to say that a tarantula is able to do the same thing as my fish and mantis shrimp can, it's a totally different animal.

I actually don't disagree, awiec. I didn't mean to imply that they can recognize us, firstly, I don't think they're vision is good enough and secondly I just don't think they have THAT level of sophistication.

I simply meant that I think we shouldn't write off some measure of intelligence or emotion completely; I don't think we know enough about either to do so. I don't think it's out of bounds to think that while yeah, owner recognition is going a bit far, there still could be a bit more going on in there than most people would think.

 

[cold blood]

Again? There was just a thread about the same topic, in which I linked another older thread which was very interesting.

Bottom line, what they have isn't even considered a brain, but rather, mere ganglion. They are reactive, instinctive creatures that lack the ability to reason, problem solve, have emotions or recognize their "owners".

And awiec, I think you are mis-leading when you say "trained". Rather its more of you understanding their behavior enough to be able to reproduce an action repeatedly than it is a true "trained" scenario.

I'll give an example, you could "say" I have my Poecs and Psalms "trained" to come to the vent holes and take prey....But the truth is much different, they aren't trained, rather I understand that a hungry poec or psalm will readily and quickly approach certain sounds/movements, and I use that to my advantage to make feeding easier, as I can easily replicate those sounds and movements.

 

[awiec]

Again? There was just a thread about the same topic, in which I linked another older thread which was very interesting.

Bottom line, what they have isn't even considered a brain, but rather, mere ganglion. They are reactive, instinctive creatures that lack the ability to reason, have emotions or recognize their "owners".

And awiec, I think you are mis-leading when you say "trained". Rather its more of you understanding their behavior enough to be able to reproduce an action repeatedly than it is a true "trained" scenario.

I'll give an example, you could "say" I have my Poecs and Psalms "trained" to come to the vent holes and take prey....But the truth is much different, they aren't trained, rather I understand that a hungry poec or psalm will readily and quickly approach certain sounds/movements, and I use that to my advantage to make feeding easier, as I can easily replicate those sounds and movements.

Classically Conditioned a better term for you? I just use the word "trained" as most people aren't familiar with behavior manipulation and the various subsets and techniques. I was able to get orb weavers at my house to go to a certain point of the web by putting up a particular tuning fork on their web. They knew which frequencies were associated with me giving them food. I did a similar thing for my pamph and I did stimulation de-sensitization with some grass spiders. I manipulated their behavior to get a result I wanted which I suppose some people may consider that "trained" but in reality it really isn't.

 

[cold blood]

Yeah, conditioned would be the term. But being able to become conditioned isn't a show of intelligence....just a show of being alive. Even plants can be conditioned to grow in certain manners or directions by manipulating the direction of the light source or being positioned to climb a certain placed object. By understanding what drives or stimulates a living thing (what is instinctual) we are able to take advantage of such things to easily condition them....as you illustrated.

 

[awiec]

Yeah, conditioned would be the term. But being able to become conditioned isn't a show of intelligence....just a show of being alive. Even plants can be conditioned to grow in certain manners or directions by manipulating the direction of the light source or being positioned to climb a certain placed object. By understanding what drives or stimulates a living thing (what is instinctual) we are able to take advantage of such things to easily condition them....as you illustrated.

Thats what I get with being lazy with my words and yeah I know you can train plants, have been doing it for years via bonsai and just plain old trellis "training". Though at the end of the day I don't think tarantulas can have "emotions" as we know it and trying to argue that they do is a dangerous path; these animals need to be respected for what they are, not what you would like them to be.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Emotions, no. Ability to learn, yes. I suggest people get a membership to the British Arachnological Society in order to access their huge reprint library.

PUNZO,F.
(2002) Reversal learning and complex maze learning in the spider Aphonopelma henzi (Girard) (Araneae, Theraphosidae) - Bull.Br.arachnol.Soc.12(4): 153-158

PUNZO,F.
(2004) The capacity for spatial learning in spiders: a review - Bull.Br.arachnol.Soc.13(3): 65-72

 

[Beary Strange]

Anyone claiming them to be capable of the same measure of cognition of a cat or a dog is a person who doesn't understand their anatomy. There are plenty of people like this in the hobby. They keep their Ts on barkchips or sand, if they use a water dish it has a sponge in it, they keep all sorts of crazy things in the tank because it's cool, they regularly take it out to sit on their shoulder and watch TV with them and you better believe they know it recognizes them and comes when called--basically, the information and education resistant set.

We know what tarantulas are capable of, we know how their brain functions, we aren't just guessing, they've been dissected, examined and studied--how do you think we know their internal components? Describing them as biological machines is pretty apt; I tend to refer to them as little automatons. I can get attached to them, but I hold no delusions that they even know I exist outside of the large looming thing that is a threat. Run! Hide! Oh hey food! Get!

 

[awiec]

Anyone claiming them to be capable of the same measure of cognition of a cat or a dog is a person who doesn't understand their anatomy. There are plenty of people like this in the hobby. They keep their Ts on barkchips or sand, if they use a water dish it has a sponge in it, they keep all sorts of crazy things in the tank because it's cool, they regularly take it out to sit on their shoulder and watch TV with them and you better believe they know it recognizes them and comes when called--basically, the information and education resistant set.

We know what tarantulas are capable of, we know how their brain functions, we aren't just guessing, they've been dissected, examined and studied--how do you think we know their internal components? Describing them as biological machines is pretty apt; I tend to refer to them as little automatons. I can get attached to them, but I hold no delusions that they even know I exist outside of the large looming thing that is a threat. Run! Hide! Oh hey food! Get!

Which is why I get irritated when people say "but she loves me!", no she/he does not they just tolerate, they've been around for over 300 million years, they don't need people. I knew what I was getting into when I got into spiders, I wanted something that doesn't want interaction and is easy to care for. If I want something to bond with I'll get a cat/dog, which even people anthropomorphize them too often as well.

 

[EulersK]

Which is why I get irritated when people say "but she loves me!", no she/he does not they just tolerate, they've been around for over 300 million years, they don't need people. I knew what I was getting into when I got into spiders, I wanted something that doesn't want interaction and is easy to care for. If I want something to bond with I'll get a cat/dog, which even people anthropomorphize them too often as well.

This is part of the reason that I love this hobby. It allows me to have pets without the emotional baggage that comes along with higher intelligence animals. Anyone that has had to put down a dog would agree that it is absolutely nothing like losing a tarantula. If a tarantula dies, I may feel guilt if I was the cause of their death. However, if I know I did nothing wrong, I feel little beyond the disappointment that he/she is gone. There is a very good reason that some of the first autonomous robots we created we based off of arthropods - they are basic, basic creatures in terms of mental capacity. Purely driven on instinct, nothing more.

 

[CoinJar]

Clarification.

I would like to take a moment to defend myself here and clarify that I never meant to suggest that tarantulas are on par with cats and dogs, but only said this to question where on the spectrum you believed tarantulas stood on intelligence (one side being cats and dogs, the other being a mindless robot).

 

[Beary Strange]

I would like to take a moment to defend myself here and clarify that I never meant to suggest that tarantulas are on par with cats and dogs, but only said this to question where on the spectrum you believed tarantulas stood on intelligence (one side being cats and dogs, the other being a mindless robot).

From your post, my impression was that you were wondering if there was any credence to that line of thought, and I responded how I feel about that.

 

[Formerphobe]

Sexual desire is not an emotion, nor do spiders display it. They are instinct driven.
It's also questionable if they experience any degree of fear or anger as we know it. Again, most likely the instinct of self preservation.
I do think tarantulas "recognize" regular keepers. They acclimate to regular vibration patterns and other stimuli. My spiders all stay visible when I enter and move around my room. Most do not react to my daughters coming in the room. But, let me bring a stranger in and it looks like I have a bunch of empty enclosures. Different footfalls, voice timbre, deoderant, cologne, etc.

 

[awiec]

Sexual desire is not an emotion, nor do spiders display it. They are instinct driven.
It's also questionable if they experience any degree of fear or anger as we know it. Again, most likely the instinct of self preservation.
I do think tarantulas "recognize" regular keepers. They acclimate to regular vibration patterns and other stimuli. My spiders all stay visible when I enter and move around my room. Most do not react to my daughters coming in the room. But, let me bring a stranger in and it looks like I have a bunch of empty enclosures. Different footfalls, voice timbre, deoderant, cologne, etc.

I will add that my boyfriend has a P.metallica that absolutely hates his voice and will throw poses and bite at the deli cup sides until he leaves. She tries to bite me about once a week too but when he's around she's much more defensive than usual. I image since his voice is much deeper than mine that he might sound like a larger animal/threat while mine is very squeaky and has an irregular pitch. I've always been curious of how vibrations and taste "paint" the picture for animals who rely on it.