Wild Caught VS Captive Bred

[Jimakne Cricket]

I have been reading some of the threads on this issue and was interseted in some other points of view. I am wondering how others feel about W/C animals and the justification of there capture and subsequent treatment.

I believe this deserves an honest debate.

How do you feel about this issue?

Jim

 

[Avicularia Man]

I plan on catching three snakes this next season to keep as pets. Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum, Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta, and Diadophis punctatus edwardsii. With that said, I will not buy WC animals.

 

[TarantulaFanBoy]

I feel people will get angry and shout at each other.

Plus I'm too tired to debate I'm going to bed.

LoL

 

[Jimakne Cricket]

I feel people will get angry and shout at each other.

Plus I'm too tired to debate I'm going to bed.

LoL

Is anger a bad thing?
I imagine that that is the emotion which will bring forth the most honest of responses. It's the justification of each individual and their position that adds value to this discussion.

Good night.

I need to clarify the question. It's not the actions of a collector or hobbiest, but the actions of the importers and exporters.

 

[jayefbe]

I personally don't like WC, and do my best to purchase CB as much as possible. In the dart frog trade, illegal collecting for the hobby is decimating entire populations of frogs. I've heard that the same thing is happening with Aphonopelma moderatum in Texas.

In the end, collecting T's from the wild may not have that much of an effect on wild populations, I don't know. I'm sure it varies from species to species, but if it's something already being bred in the hobby than why buy WC? If it's a new species, then efforts should be made to start breeding it in the hobby.

 

[Jimakne Cricket]

May I ask this?

Is the opportunity to keep a "new" species worth the suffering of the over collected?

 

[jayefbe]

May I ask this?

Is the opportunity to keep a "new" species worth the suffering of the over collected?

In my opinion, no. I've heard the arguments that captive breeding is the only way to save a species that is going extinct in the wild, and I disagree with them completely. If they are not free in the wild to continue on their evolutionary trajectory then they are extinct, in my eyes. I have no desire to own a relic of the past in my collection, and know that by purchasing it I possibly may have contributed to their demise. This hobby is a way to appreciate some of the beauty the exists in these species. The point isn't to collect as many species as possible, even to the possible detriment of wild populations.

 

[BlackCat]

In the past I have argued against wc, and while I'm still against it in some aspects I do see that it is necessary for some situations such as with breeders, in order to promote genetic diversity and to keep pure bred species in the hobby.

I still don't completely like the idea of taking an animal out of its home for selfish reasons, but i can see both sides. Who knows, maybe tarantulas like having their food handed to them with a silver spoon? (of course to them it is more like tweezers.)

 

[Arachnoheebs]

May I ask this?

Is the opportunity to keep a "new" species worth the suffering of the over collected?

I have witnessed the abuse of a multitude of creatures for the enjoyment of the consumer. I don't believe you can justify the actions that take place in order to feed the market.

Mark

 

[Marvin]

Sorry but I didn't have time to read the whole thread. I don't think its fair to the animal that you just remove it from its natural home. So if you ask me, WC is a no go!

I have to admit tho, lots of the WC animals are alot more colour full.

 

[Bill S]

As someone already suggested, there's a difference between an individual collecting one or two specimens from a healthy wild population and a dealer strip-mining an area. If after the tarantulas are collected from the wild there remains a healthy population in an undamaged environment, then I don't have a problem with wild capture. But if the habitat is destroyed or the population is severely impacted - I'm very much against it.

Someone argued that captive breeding doesn't save wild populations because the animals no longer contribute to the wild population. I think that person missed the point of captive breeding. If there's a demand for a particular species in the hobby, that demand will be met by dealers. If dealers can sell captive bred animals to meet that demand, then the wild populations can be left alone. If captive bred are not available, then wild populations will be commercially collected.

I've kept reptiles for most of my life, but it's been many years since I caught or bought a wild snake. Captive breeding has made many species and forms available to the general public, and captive born animals are healthier and more adapted to captivity. The tarantulas I keep are all captive born - with two exceptions. One was a rescue - found as a nearly dead juvenile on my bathroom floor. Don't know how he got there, but after a spell of pampering in an ICU he came back to life and now lives in captivity. The other was found on the kitchen doorstep. Technically, that one could have been left alone and would most likely have wandered back into the desert - but taking in that one individual did not impact the wild population here, and did no habitat damage. I've also got a couple Scolopendra heros that were rescued from bad situations - one was getting the worst end of a disagreement with a cat, and the other one was a refugee from the place where I work after an exterminator sprayed the place. Those specimens will live out their lives in captivity, but would not have survived otherwise.

My wife and I also work with local arachnids of many types - and some of these end up in captivity. In some cases they are captive only temporarily until they can be photographed and documented, then are returned to the wild. In some cases they are bred in captivity and the parents are then released (and generally the babies are released eventually as well). But a few do live out their lives in captivity, and go into jars of alcohol after they die.

 

[paul fleming]

Sorry but I didn't have time to read the whole thread. I don't think its fair to the animal that you just remove it from its natural home. So if you ask me, WC is a no go!

I have to admit tho, lots of the WC animals are alot more colour full.

Without WC T's over here....there would be no hobby....the same in almost every other country.
Where do you think they all came from originally?
Selenecosmia have only been arround for a few years over here and they all started as WC and now people are breeding CB specimens which has to be good for the species in the long run.
I don't condone removing large numbers from the wild by the way.

 

[jayefbe]

Someone argued that captive breeding doesn't save wild populations because the animals no longer contribute to the wild population. I think that person missed the point of captive breeding. If there's a demand for a particular species in the hobby, that demand will be met by dealers. If dealers can sell captive bred animals to meet that demand, then the wild populations can be left alone. If captive bred are not available, then wild populations will be commercially collected.

I agree with those sentiments wholly. Perhaps I should be more clear. I have debated with people on the merits of purchasing offspring (maybe offspring of offspring) of illegally smuggled WC members of a species very close to extinction (and the public trade of which is vehemently opposed by the BTS). Their argument is that captive breeding is their only hope for survival. My opinion is that if the situation is so dire then collecting for the pet trade is doing nothing but hastening their demise for the purpose of allowing people to have an extinct trophy in their bedroom. My opinion is that under such tragic circumstances, adding another species to the pet trade should be the last thing on anyone's mind. Under most circumstances, collecting a sustainable number of individuals for the purpose of starting a captive breeding group I have no qualms with. To collect past the level of sustainability while arguing that you are somehow saving the species is a practice that I disagree with.

 

[Bill S]

My opinion is that if the situation is so dire then collecting for the pet trade is doing nothing but hastening their demise for the purpose of allowing people to have an extinct trophy in their bedroom. My opinion is that under such tragic circumstances, adding another species to the pet trade should be the last thing on anyone's mind. Under most circumstances, collecting a sustainable number of individuals for the purpose of starting a captive breeding group I have no qualms with. To collect past the level of sustainability while arguing that you are somehow saving the species is a practice that I disagree with.

I completely agree. Sometimes the "captive breeding for conservation" is a false front. There are those people who would be content to drive an animal to extinction in the wild as long as they got a captive breeding population established so they could make money off it.

 

[Avicularia Man]

I see no problem with importing and exporting. The problem is who those animals go too. Most end up in pet stores, then some person that will never breed, decides to buy it. If it was up to me, all imports should go to breeders to help stop the need with importing by having a large enough CB stock to leave the wild ones alone. Then maybe from time to time in the future, catch a few more to import here and there just to add new blood to the current breeding stocks.

 

[PhilR]

Selenecosmia have only been arround for a few years over here and they all started as WC and now people are breeding CB specimens which has to be good for the species in the long run.
I don't condone removing large numbers from the wild by the way.

Selenecosmia spp. have been around in the UK hobby since the early 1990's Paul, and possibly earlier.

• Whyle, W. M. (1993) Mating Selenocosmia arndsti. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 8 (4), pp. 10–11.

Nothing wrong with WC spiders as far as I'm concerned, as long as there's not widespread pillaging and no danger to the species or their biotope as a result of their removal. Neither of which is likely if only small numbers are removed.

 

[paul fleming]

Selenecosmia spp. have been around in the UK hobby since the early 1990's Paul, and possibly earlier.

• Whyle, W. M. (1993) Mating Selenocosmia arndsti. Journal of the British Tarantula Society, 8 (4), pp. 10–11.

Nothing wrong with WC spiders as far as I'm concerned, as long as there's not widespread pillaging and no danger to the species or their biotope as a result of their removal. Neither of which is likely if only small numbers are removed.

ok.....mid 90's (seeing Ray hale's article about keeping them) I thought and did not think it was widely available until the last few years for everyday keepers.......is that right Phil ?
The point is still the same though about WC/CB.
Always nice to chat to you


http://www.thebts.co.uk/selenocosmia.htm

 

[curiousme]

We prefer to buy CB, but have bought 4 WC tarantulas to save them from pet stores.(only to have them replaced with more and kept in the same conditions) i hope captive breeding will sustain the hobby, so looting their native habitats for exporting doesn't cause extinction.

One of the drawbacks i can see with CB is that we are taking natural selection completely out of the picture. To me that means that we are going to see more spiderlings die of unknown causes, simply because they were the weaker ones of the sac. This leads to paranoia, like sudden avicularia death and DKS. These spiderlings would have died in the wild, because they weren't strong enough; but people don't seem to think about that. It is horrible to lose a pet, but it is worse to think it was somehow something you could prevent. Sometimes there just isn't, but that is the way of all life.

 

[Xian]

We prefer to buy CB, but have bought 4 WC tarantulas to save them from pet stores.(only to have them replaced with more and kept in the same conditions) i hope captive breeding will sustain the hobby, so looting their native habitats for exporting doesn't cause extinction.

One of the drawbacks i can see with CB is that we are taking natural selection completely out of the picture. To me that means that we are going to see more spiderlings die of unknown causes, simply because they were the weaker ones of the sac. This leads to paranoia, like sudden avicularia death and DKS. These spiderlings would have died in the wild, because they weren't strong enough; but people don't seem to think about that. It is horrible to lose a pet, but it is worse to think it was somehow something you could prevent. Sometimes there just isn't, but that is the way of all life.

I'm a firm believer in leaving the slings together for a time in order to help a little with the natural selection process by cannibalization. I do understand that breeders will not do this because it cuts into their profits.

 

[curiousme]

The flip side of my above comment(that somehow double posted), is this:

We had this happen to our B. smithi

and this happen to our A. versicolor

Both Ts are alive and thriving, but i doubt they would be if they had been in the wild. So, some things can be helped, simply because of the regulation of its environment.

I'm a firm believer in leaving the slings together for a time in order to help a little with the natural selection process by cannibalization. I do understand that breeders will not do this because it cuts into their profits.

Well, it isn't like you can get a warranty on a tarantula, so the breeders are under no obligation to to do so and i wouldn't expect them to either. In the case of our two problems, we 'beat' natural selection.

i see the logic in this technique and i am undecided on my stance on it right now. Mr. Gone and i have discussed it and it is something to consider, should we ever choose to breed any ourselves.