"Wild" cat most appropriate for being a "pet"...

[lizardminion]

(Technically, domestic cats are wild cats as the only difference is being bred for skills or appearance, but unlike dogs, they don't experience much- if any- neoteny in behavior or appearance and they are just like tame individuals of their wild relatives. The only thing making them more suitable pets is their overall more docile attitude and less threatening size.)

What non-domestic wildcat would you- from your knowledge, or better yet, experience- say is the best suitable to be kept by non-staff (of any facility such as a zoo or "rescue" center) individuals such as hobbyist or exotic pet keepers? This means they aren't too big and and remain docile, and are more suitable in the domestic surrounding. I am not looking into keeping any myself, at least, not any time soon, but it is rather a topic of interest for me and I may also use it when proposing arguments. From my general knowledge, I'd think Felis sylvestris sylvestris is most appropriate as they are the main species that man split the domestic cat from, and as far as I'm aware, domestic/house cats didn't go through much of a behavior shift. Is there any record of the Eurasian Wildcat (Felis sylvestris sylvestris) being kept in a domestic environment in modern times and how did they differ from domestic cats, behaviorally? (Breaking it down to simple English: Has any kept the Eurasian Wildcat as a pet and how did it compare to the common house cat?)

 

[pitbulllady]

(Technically, domestic cats are wild cats as the only difference is being bred for skills or appearance, but unlike dogs, they don't experience much- if any- neoteny in behavior or appearance and they are just like tame individuals of their wild relatives. The only thing making them more suitable pets is their overall more docile attitude and less threatening size.)

What non-domestic wildcat would you- from your knowledge, or better yet, experience- say is the best suitable to be kept by non-staff (of any facility such as a zoo or "rescue" center) individuals such as hobbyist or exotic pet keepers? This means they aren't too big and and remain docile, and are more suitable in the domestic surrounding. I am not looking into keeping any myself, at least, not any time soon, but it is rather a topic of interest for me and I may also use it when proposing arguments. From my general knowledge, I'd think Felis sylvestris sylvestris is most appropriate as they are the main species that man split the domestic cat from, and as far as I'm aware, domestic/house cats didn't go through much of a behavior shift. Is there any record of the Eurasian Wildcat (Felis sylvestris sylvestris) being kept in a domestic environment in modern times and how did they differ from domestic cats, behaviorally? (Breaking it down to simple English: Has any kept the Eurasian Wildcat as a pet and how did it compare to the common house cat?)

Actually, Lizardminion, domestic cat BREEDS DO exhibit a great deal of neoteny; a purebred Persian, for example, looks and acts no more like its wild ancestors than an English Bulldog looks like a wolf. Behaviorally, there are many differences as well, even between feral cats and true wild cats. I have personally owned and/or interacted with, one on one, with many species of wild cats, ranging from bobcats to Bengal tigers, so I do feel that I am in a position to say that.

First, let me address those differences. The biggest differences between even the most socialized wild cat, bred and raised in captivity, and a domestic cat has to do with its reactions to new or unfamiliar stimuli and with what behaviorists refer to as "resource guarding" behavior. If your house cat is playing with something on the floor, say, a pencil, and you go to take it away, 99% of house cats will relinquish that object willingly. If a tamed bobcat, cougar, or other wild cat is playing with something, and you go to take it away, you are very likely to wind up in the hospital as a result. If your house cat is eating at its bowl, and you approach, the cat will probably ignore you and keep right on eating. Approach a wild cat that is eating, and you've got a good chance of being attacked. They are hard-wired to defend resources like food, knowing instinctively that it might be the last meal that they'll get for a long time; yes, this applies even to captive, bottle-raised animals that are fed every day. Domestication has changed that behavior in house cats, but no matter how tame a wild cat is, it will never lose that instinct or that behavior, so YOU have to be the one to adapt. Most wild cats, even those which have been extensively socialized, do NOT take well to strange people or unfamiliar settings, so putting that animal in a boarding kennel or even hiring someone to come care for it while you go off on vacation is not advisable at all. Behaviors that can be easily corrected in a house cat, like jumping up on counter tops, are an essential part of wild cat behavior that you WILL NOT change, period, so you have to be the one to change what YOU do and alter YOUR lifestyle.

Ironically, the wild species that make that best pets are not the smaller cats. My closest experience with European Wildcats was a 50% mix of Scottish Wildcat and domestic that I bottle fed from a kitten before her eyes opened. At best, she tolerated humans...sometimes. She never sought out interaction with me or anyone else. At the most, she'd allow someone to pet her for a few minutes. She'd let you know she'd had enough by biting. Hard. If she was in no mood to be touched from the start, which was about half the time, she'd start snarling and hissing as soon as she saw you. Every account I've ever read of attempts to tame Felis sylvestris sylvestris or F. s. grampia has ended in failure, regardless of how close the cats were raised with humans. They inevitably become standoffish and aggressive upon reaching a certain age. The Highland Scots revered this animal for its untamable and determined nature. These cats no longer are available in the US, btw, and efforts are being made in Britain to salvage this species from the edge of extinction, but it is probably already too late.

I've had four bobcats in my life. Of those, ONE was a fully reliable pet, a neutered male I also bottle fed, but I honestly do believe he was a few bricks short of a full load. The other three had moments of unpleasantness which could have ended badly for both of us had I pushed them or tried to be "alpha". That does NOT work with cats the way it does with canines! When a wild cat acts aggressive, you back off and leave it alone. If it grabs something of yours, you have to either distract and tempt it with something else, or write that object off as a loss, because you're NOT going to take it back! NO wild cat species can adapt to eating commercial cat food, btw. You must feed high-quality raw meat, entrails, and skin, with vitamin supplements made just for those animals, and believe that does get expensive, time-consuming and messy! Do you mind going to a slaughterhouse and getting bucketloads of freshly-slaughtered cattle stomachs, guts, lungs, hearts, etc., and bringing them home and cutting them up? If you are the least bit squeamish, a wild cat is NOT for you! Or, do you hunt deer and other game? That is the other way I fed my animals.

My cougars were probably the closest to a house cat in behavior or temperament of all the cats I had, despite their size, but again, you still have that food aggression and guarding of toys, etc. You have a lot more to clean up and a much larger food bill, and instead of being bitten and scratched if the cat gets angry, you can be killed. Never let that thought get out of your mind when working with wild cats. It's a lot like keeping venomous snakes, only you have to be MORE on guard, because a Rattlesnake won't decide to charge across a room and attack you, while a large cat just might. There also are other issues, including Rabies vaccination. There are no approved Rabies vaccines for non-domestic cats, which means no vet will vaccinate one. If your cat bites or scratches anyone, however slight, health authorities WILL seize it and kill it to test its brain for Rabies. If you like to have company over, you must have a 100% reliable means of separating them from the cat, no exceptions. You cannot count on the cat not attacking a strange person in its territory or the person not doing something stupid that will result in an attack. Forget going on vacation. You will be stuck at home as long as you own the animal. I've never had a house cat show more than curiosity over my caged reptiles, spiders, etc. and they soon learn to ignore those animals, but I've never had a wild cat that wouldn't go to absolute extremes to get to those animals, so they had to be kept absolutely separated at all times. Many home owners insurance companies will drop you if you have a wild cat on your property, too. Successfully keeping such animals requires 100% commitment from 100% of the household, and a total lifestyle change for all in most cases, because the animals are NOT going to change.

pitbulllady

 

[lizardminion]

Thanks for the great amount of info, pitbulllady. You've provided a great amount of information and experience for me to consider when I begin writing articles for my website, as well as provided a view on what it's like for big cat keepers. Also, thanks for correcting me on my view of domestic cats.

 

[AmysAnimals]

I do not agree with keeping wild cats as pets. They are too big and too dangerous, IMO. The only places that i think should have wild cats are sanctuaries and rehabs for wild animals. Wild cats are not house cats and shouldn't be kept like that, in my opinion.

 

[pitbulllady]

I do not agree with keeping wild cats as pets. They are too big and too dangerous, IMO. The only places that i think should have wild cats are sanctuaries and rehabs for wild animals. Wild cats are not house cats and shouldn't be kept like that, in my opinion.

While you're entitled to your opinion, Amy, wild cats CAN be rewarding pets for people who are willing to do their research and alter their own lifestyle, in ways that most people arn't willing. I kept-and enjoyed-many species for many years, but it was very, very hard work, and I no longer have the time, money or energy to do that again. I am absolutely, adamantly, 100% AGAINST ANY "exotic" animal bans, as this plays right into the hands of the very people who will just as happily take away YOUR animals, regardless of what they might be, and I'm talking about the Animal Rights movement. To them, it is unacceptable for anyone to keep and breed and sell animals as pets, as food, as anything, and most of the "rescue" organizations are run by AR fanatics, who believe that they and they alone have the magic or whatever it takes to keep anything from a guppy to a zebra.

We-and by "we" I mean humans in general, you included-often keep animals which are very big and very, very dangerous. How many of us here have horses? Do you realize how big a horse is, and what its capacity for inflicting grave injury on a human is, and how many people get killed by horses each year? Statistically, horses and dogs are far more dangerous than exotic cats, so should this mean that no one other than sanctuaries, rescues and rehab centers should be allowed to keep them? I kept big and small wild cats, wolves, wolf-dogs, venomous and large constricting reptiles, yet I've never been seriously injured by one. My sister, who has horses, has been hospitalized THREE times due to being kicked, stomped or bitten by her "safe" horses, so unless you advocate banning ownership of any and ALL animals capable of inflicting serious harm to us puny humans, the "too big and dangerous" arguement doesn't fly. I'm not wanting everyone to run out and get a cougar or bobcat, but for that matter, I don't want everyone to run out and get a Labrador, either. People need to carefully choose animals based on so many factors, and what's good for the proverbial goose is NOT always good for the proverbial gander! I personally can't deal with small yappy, hyper dogs, but for some people, that's their cup of tea. Many people can't deal with large constrictor snakes, but I have never had an issue with them, and I've kept those animals since the age of 12, native Colubrids much longer than that. Yet, there are many people who say the exact same thing about my snakes that you just said about wild cats, and do not believe anyone should be allowed to own them. It's really just a matter of people believing that EVERYONE on the planet should like and want the exact same things that they themselves do, a matter of "I wouldn't want to keep/own this and *I* don't like this, so no one else should be able to have it or like it, either". There ARE people for whom a wild cat can be a very good pet. Trust me-those animals do not know of any existance other than what they grew up in. They do not sit and pine away for the "wild" that they've never known. I had cats that lived for 14-16 years, way past their lifespan in "the wild", and a friend of mine had a leopard that lived 24 years! Animals that aren't "happy" do not live long, so we were doing something right! I think that too many people base their opinions of the keeping of "exotic" animals in captivity on their own abstract notions of "freedom" and project onto the animals their own subconscious desire to be absolutely "free", whatever they perceive that to be.

pitbulllady

 

[Shell]

I kept big and small wild cats, wolves, wolf-dogs, venomous and large constricting reptiles, yet I've never been seriously injured by one. My sister, who has horses, has been hospitalized THREE times due to being kicked, stomped or bitten by her "safe" horses

Just to point out that while yes horses are dangerous, you kind of make them sound horrible here lol...I've been around horses my entire life. Grew up on a large breeding/show stable. Been breaking since I was a teen, professionally training for many years. I was an excercise rider/trainer for Thoroughbred racehorses, and have been showing since I was 4 (lead line classes at that age). For many, many years (probably 2/3 of my life) I have been on 10+ horses a day (some days more), as well as all sorts of ground work.

I have been injured yes, but nothing that required hospitilization (aside from the odd ER trip to be checked out, but was always sent home after). I've been kicked, bitten, and taken some pretty nasty falls. I've also not been one to stick to "safe" horses, like lesson horses or trail horses. Our own stable owned high strung show horses, as well as breeding stallions. I have trained many "problem" horses, and of course ridden racehorses who are known to be very unpredictable and often volatile.

I'm not trying to argue with you at all, Pitbulllady, I always value your posts and knowledge I just wanted to point out from an experienced horse persons point of view that while they are dangerous, they aren't awful, especially if you know what you're doing. They certainly aren't for everyone, but with respect and knowledge you can be safe while working with them.

Sorry to derail the thread PS PBL, love your info on wildcats, very informative.

 

[AmysAnimals]

Pitbulllady you have some very interesting things to say. I really enjoy reading what you write. It really makes me think. I think that ANY animal must have research done on it before buying or adopting it. I've done so much research on my animals and I still continue to research. While I still don't totally agree with owning wild cats, you've really opened my eyes a little.

The most wild thing I've ever owned are my tarantulas lol. I have had dogs, cats, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, snakes, lizards, mice...I think I've owned just about everything lol not wild animals though I think I will stay away from those.

I do not agree with putting bans on any animal. It's not fair. Like here in California we cant own ferrets, though there is an underground ferret society in California. There are several other things banned here. Why should an owner be banned from owning an animal? Why should an animal be banned from a state? It's cruel.

 

[pitbulllady]

Pitbulllady you have some very interesting things to say. I really enjoy reading what you write. It really makes me think. I think that ANY animal must have research done on it before buying or adopting it. I've done so much research on my animals and I still continue to research. While I still don't totally agree with owning wild cats, you've really opened my eyes a little.

The most wild thing I've ever owned are my tarantulas lol. I have had dogs, cats, rats, guinea pigs, rabbits, snakes, lizards, mice...I think I've owned just about everything lol not wild animals though I think I will stay away from those.

I do not agree with putting bans on any animal. It's not fair. Like here in California we cant own ferrets, though there is an underground ferret society in California. There are several other things banned here. Why should an owner be banned from owning an animal? Why should an animal be banned from a state? It's cruel.

Banning animals IS indeed cruel, and that's something that most folks do not take into account, either that, or they WANT the animals to suffer. The AR's claim that their goal is to stop animal suffering, but when they succeed in getting a ban pushed through, on anything, the animals' suffering increases. Most of the animals affected will be abandoned to starve or die from any of countless ways, or will be killed, or, should the owners choose to take that risk and keep the animals, they will be forced "underground" and will no longer have access to veterinary care, proper housing, exercise or even proper food, so as to avoid raising suspicions that someone is keeping an illegal animal. It's a no-win situation for the animals.

pitbulllady

 

[Louise E. Rothstein]

Animal bans inflict acute suffering upon people who care about the animals that are being banned.
They also encourage "witch hunting" of both the "bad" animals AND of people who don't like to abandon them.

These bans may not create ignorant bigotry...but they certainly exacerbate it.

Do they do any good?

All proponents think they do:
animal massacres,expulsions,et cetera do "solve" some "problems."

Is that "the only thing we can do...?"

-Certainly not.

 

[poisoned]

Well, all animal bans are not bad. i.e. Red necked turtles are banned here, because people released it in ponds and now it's taking over our native European pond turtle's habitats. But the pet industry found a workaround with Yellow necked turtles.

 

[pitbulllady]

Well, all animal bans are not bad. i.e. Red necked turtles are banned here, because people released it in ponds and now it's taking over our native European pond turtle's habitats. But the pet industry found a workaround with Yellow necked turtles.

The ban on Red-Eared Sliders is like the ban on Burmese Pythons in Florida; it was put into place AFTER those animals had already established themselves in the wrong environment, and therefore the ban will have absolutely NO EFFECT AT ALL on those animals already in the environment. It just punishes responsible owners who would otherwise be good keepers of those species. It's like banning cars because some people get drunk and drive and hurt others. If a person is caught with a banned animal, the person either has to pay a fine or go to jail, or both, plus they now have a criminal record, and the animal is taken away and killed, even though the owner might have been taking perfect care of it. That is simply WRONG!

pitbulllady

 

[Thistles]

Red-eared Sliders are banned here in Oregon, yet I have about 10 regular customers (I work at a petstore) who keep them. I also have dozens of families coming in every summer with their new slider hatchlings (doubly illegal) which they obtain in California and bring home without knowing they are breaking the law. I even had one guy who had ordered 6 sliders for his pond, and came to me after they "escaped" looking for advice on how to keep the 6 new ones he had ordered from escaping. He didn't like my suggestions, and said he'd consider a fence for the next batch if this group took off.

Clearly this legislation is highly effective.

I am from Virginia and used to work at a pet store there with a 600 gallon display tank. One of the inhabitants was a snakehead. About 8 years ago there was a huge SNAKEHEADS IN THE POTOMAC!!! scare, and our snakehead was seized and killed on the spot. The fish wasn't illegal to own, but it wasn't legal to sell. That fish wasn't for sale, but the officials claimed they had seen it for sale online. The store didn't even have a website. I was only 16 at the time, and I loved that fish. It was quite a trauma for little me, and certainly inhumane for the fish, which was never going to end up in a local waterway.

Yay personal anecdotes!

That said, someday I would like to own a caracal. I am in no situation to have one now, but I am responsible enough to know it! MOST people should not own wildcats, but it isn't the government's place to tell us that.

 

[Amoeba]

A) Just buy a hybrid domestic cat.

Here are some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savannah_(cat) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_(cat)

B) Do more research than anyone could possibly think of being necessary. If you want to keep a wild animal then you need to be facility quality in care and knowledge.

I volunteer with a myriad of wild and big cats I will second pitbulllady on the cougar thing. If you work with them enough (particularly from a young age) they can be socialized with humans. IT IS A FULL TIME JOB! You must be consistent in this. Study how mother cougars act with their young and emulate this. YOU WILL GET BIT and SCRATCHED and IMO declawing is never an option for any cat. Do not hesitate in your actions, if you are apprehensive they will know.

Here my (and other peoples) theory on wild cats. Animals like Lions, Tigers, and Cougars have the luxury of being top predators and therefore have nothing to fear. Small cats like Servals and Caracals are not the top and are sometimes prey, and they will and do act accordingly. Tigers chuff to greet you....Caracals hiss.

Just so you are aware the grocery bill for a big cat is in the THOUSANDS. Even if they are just a little bit bigger than a domestic they should not be kept inside.


Overall my advice to you: Volunteer at a facility, stop using the word tame to describe ANY animal,and do more research than anyone would want to.

 

[poisoned]

The ban on Red-Eared Sliders is like the ban on Burmese Pythons in Florida; it was put into place AFTER those animals had already established themselves in the wrong environment, and therefore the ban will have absolutely NO EFFECT AT ALL on those animals already in the environment. It just punishes responsible owners who would otherwise be good keepers of those species. It's like banning cars because some people get drunk and drive and hurt others. If a person is caught with a banned animal, the person either has to pay a fine or go to jail, or both, plus they now have a criminal record, and the animal is taken away and killed, even though the owner might have been taking perfect care of it. That is simply WRONG!

pitbulllady

Well, owning is not illegal, just selling, so you can get yours in a near pond, plus you do something for environment.

 

[pnshmntMMA]

I can solve this. Get a dog. Problem solved..

 

[The Snark]

What is interesting about this thread are the widely varying viewpoints. This in turn is pointing dead at the fact that the 'one set of rules for keeping animals' does not exist. This discussion is irreducible.
Allowances by everyone must be made. We are the thinking rational creatures. We should not make blanket statements but observations from our own unique experiences. Observations that will not apply universally as there will always be anomalies.
With that said, please continue. This is a fascinating enlightening discussion.

 

[LV-426]

Why would anyone have any wild cat species as pet? They are just asking to get mauled or worse.

 

[Amoeba]

Why would anyone have any wild cat species as pet? They are just asking to get mauled or worse.

Why would anyone keep a tarantula as a pet? They are just asking to get their face eaten.

 

[pitbulllady]

Why would anyone have any wild cat species as pet? They are just asking to get mauled or worse.

Why would anyone want a dog? They're just asking to get mauled or worse.
Why would anyone want a horse? They're just asking to have their skull kicked in.
Why would anyone keep cattle? They're just asking to be gored.
Why would anyone want a house cat? They're just asking to get bitten or have their eyes scratched out, or their baby's breath stolen away.
Why would anyone want a snake? They're just asking to be "poisoned" or squeezed to death.
Why would anyone want a parrot? They're just asking to have a finger bitten off.
Why would anyone want a tarantula or a scorpion? They're just asking to be "poisoned".
Why would anyone want to keep bees? They're just asking to be stung to death.

Do you see the point I'm making here, LV-426? There are risks inherent with keeping any animal, and often, those risks are greatly exaggerated by people who are either totally clueless, or who don't want us keeping ANY animals, or a combination of both. I lived with wild cats for over(and this doesn't even count the bobcats I had as a KID) 20 years, and I didn't get mauled, or worse. I never even got badly hurt. I've been injured far worse just walking down a flight of steps or walking through the woods. I just knew enough to not do anything stupid around the cats. I changed MY behavior, since I could not expect them realistically to change theirs. I was told, thoughout my childhood, that snakes would kill me. Bar none. That if I started catching them or refused to be afraid of them, I would never live to see my 15th birthday, because someone would find me dead out in my own backyard, right there on the spot where I'd been bitten. Well, suffice it to say, I'm still here, and all of the people who'd warned me of my impending premature doom from snake bite are no longer around, and I'd wager I'm probably old enough to be your grandmother, as well. IF your statement was true, I shouldn't be here at all. But I haven't really defied any odds; I'm just one of hundreds of thousands of people who have kept wild cats and other carnivores, including venomous and large constrictor snakes, who haven't made the news, but of course, the media, and the H$U$ and other AR groups, do not want you to know about people like me. We are a proverbial monkey wrench in their plans because our histories do not support their claims-AND yours-that it's pretty much inevitable that anyone who keeps "exotic" animals is going to be mauled or killed, just like they don't want to you know about the thousands of "pit bulls" that live out their lives as cherished family pets or service dogs, or the deer hunters who risk their own lives to free a White-Tailed doe from quick sand in an old abandoned rice paddy in the SC Low Country, or the dog breeders who maintain contact with their puppies' buyers 10 years later and still accept back a three-year-old, aggressive, spoiled Alpha dog when his buyer's family became scared of him. People like us don't suit their agenda, but people like you fit in just fine and dandy with their plans because you choose to believe the AR's. They count on people having that "if I wouldn't want it, no one else should be able to have it, either" mentality.

pitbulllady

 

[Thistles]

Tigers chuff to greet you....Caracals hiss.

That's what I love! My favorite T is H. maculata, so that should tell you a bit.