Why you don't breed localities/morphotypes together!

[viper69]

There are number of posts on here with either ignorant people, or people who don't take the time to learn but clearly have the time asking "can I breed Avic M X with Avic M Y together, aren't they really the same, why not?!" And you can insert any genera in here that you please. Some listen to us, some are always skeptical and think we don't know too much, or think the message trading is a I'm right, you are wrong...Well here's a layman's article that clearly shows why you shouldn't engage in husbandry practices that make your T smarter than you. Learn people, research why or why not. Some do here, many do not.

I've kept chameleons far earlier than I kept Ts. For many DECADES, the Panther Chameleon was, and still is, regarded as the most beautiful species of chameleon, and lizard out there by most people. They live on all sorts of islands, and each locality looks different. However that's all people really knew- they were all scientifically described as one species, until SCIENTISTS, yes all you tin hat wearers, SCIENTISTS learned the following

I've had this article buried for a while, and always keep forgetting to use as evidence.

Now we just need a molecular analysis of Avics!!!

11 kinds of chameleon found masquerading as a single species

Chameleons in Madagascar previously thought to all belong to a single species have actually turned out to be 11 separate ones.

www.cnet.com

 

[Arachnophobphile]

Great post and article. I can only imagine how long breeding panther chameleons been going on thinking they are all the same species.....what a nightmare. I can also see arachnoculture suffering from the exact same thing only more prevalent.

 

[SpookySpooder]

They repeated the first paragraph twice. Does no one proofread at that office?

 

[dragonfire1577]

To be fair panther chameleon locale crosses from any good breeder have tracked percentages of each locale - and most breeders breed pure locales primarily. Doubt this really has any impact on the breeding of that species. The concern is always unrecorded crosses of morphotypes or even phenotypically similar animals from vastly different collection sites that result in hybrids unknowingly.

 

[Tarantuland]

This is something I think about a lot; especially with the rosea/porteri amalgamation. I will keep mine separate but molecular analysis indicates they are the same species tho. I know some panther breeders who mostly do ambilope, most often combined with nosy bee. But they will use percentages as @dragonfire1577 mentioned.

It has been interesting seeing how hybridization is approached differently in reptiles than it is in spiders. I have seen irminia/Cambridgei mutts that Made you double take, but when you see a carpondro or bat eater it’s pretty obvious.

This issue you mention has been a big point in boas, as imperator, sigma, and constrictor were seen as different subspecies until 2016? I think it was that they gave full species status to the prevented subspecies. Their DNA was a higher percentage dissimilar apart than humans and chimps. So nearly all morph boas are a mutt of some kind, since many of the morphs are regional.
Some of the boa locales I’m working with now, such as paraguaneras and caulkers are believed to possibly be different species than constrictor and imperator respectively.

Thanks for sharing, always good t

 

[viper69]

Great post and article. I can only imagine how long breeding panther chameleons been going on thinking they are all the same species.....what a nightmare. I can also see arachnoculture suffering from the exact same thing only more prevalent.

Not really generally speaking. The vast majority of breeders do not mix the localities. There’s a handful that did/do but the few I know kept meticulous records and could trace lineage.

Also, the vast majority were not too interested in crossing localities because they were already beautiful, and keeping that beauty was important in the hobby- prob the closest equivalent is Poison Dart Frog owners.

This is something I think about a lot; especially with the rosea/porteri amalgamation. I will keep mine separate but molecular analysis indicates they are the same species tho. I know some panther breeders who mostly do ambilope, most often combined with nosy bee. But they will use percentages as @dragonfire1577 mentioned.

It has been interesting seeing how hybridization is approached differently in reptiles than it is in spiders. I have seen irminia/Cambridgei mutts that Made you double take, but when you see a carpondro or bat eater it’s pretty obvious.

This issue you mention has been a big point in boas, as imperator, sigma, and constrictor were seen as different subspecies until 2016? I think it was that they gave full species status to the prevented subspecies. Their DNA was a higher percentage dissimilar apart than humans and chimps. So nearly all morph boas are a mutt of some kind, since many of the morphs are regional.
Some of the boa locales I’m working with now, such as paraguaneras and caulkers are believed to possibly be different species than constrictor and imperator respectively.

Thanks for sharing, always good t

Caulkers are cool. I have a pure Hog Island Boa descended from some of the original stock.

The sad part was many years later around 2006 or so the boa breeders became greedy and stupid; they started crossing Hogs into normal S American mainland boas as they wanted that gorgeous orange saddles they are famous for among other reasons.

Now in some cases you see orange saddles and it’s not a guaranteed pure Hog. When I bought mine, only a handful of people were breeding them.

 

[Tarantuland]

Caulkers are cool. I have a pure Hog Island Boa descended from some of the original stock.

The sad part was many years later around 2006 or so the boa breeders became greedy and stupid; they started crossing Hogs into normal S American mainland boas as they wanted that gorgeous orange saddles they are famous for among other reasons.

Now in some cases you see orange saddles and it’s not a guaranteed pure Hog. When I bought mine, only a handful of people were breeding them.

I think my caulkers are pure but I know my paraguaneras were originally purchased from Vin Russo so I got that. I have questioned a lot of the hogs I’ve seen, I bet yours is pretty

 

[viper69]

I think my caulkers are pure but I know my paraguaneras were originally purchased from Vin Russo so I got that. I have questioned a lot of the hogs I’ve seen, I bet yours is pretty

She is!

I’ve talked to Vin, great guy! Always wanted one of his blood corn islands, but he only sold them in pairs