Why are Phoneutria and atrax so taboo?

[noonang]

It seems like any time you bring up these spiders, everyone quites down and turns the other way. I was reading some threads from the UK and Netherlands, and apparently they are popular speciecs over there. I find that quite unbelivable for two reasons. 1) It is a different land mass then where this spider is from. As far as Phoneutria goes, the US should have a much easier time getting a hold of these then anyone across the pond. 2) While I was looking on line, I found several websites with COBRAS AND VIPERS FOR SALE! I don't know if its just me, but I would be much more wary of venomous snake that are very large and very fast then any sort of spider.
Just my two cents.

 

[smalltime]

Just your two cents, but where did you think they were talking about those on Dutch sites? :?
I'm quite sure these aren't sold here, at least not over the counter...

 

[danread]

I was reading some threads from the UK and Netherlands, and apparently they are popular speciecs over there.

I can't speak for Holland, but they aren't commonly kept as pets over in the UK. For starters you need a DWA licence, which is expensive and a lot of hassle. I'm sure there are people keeping the without the DWA, but very very few, as they woul dbe hard to get hold of (can't advertise them if you don;t have a DWA etc).

 

[Crotalus]

Atrax or other australian funnel webs isnt kept by many in Australia, as far as I understand, and ever fewer had them outside Australia. Phoneutria is sometimes imported to Europe, but there isnt many that keep them. And so it should be, after all - a bite is a serious matter.
Not many people have experience at keeping them here on the board so maybe thats why it may not evolve into a long thread about these spiders.
Comparing venomous snakes and potent spiders cant be done, both are difficult in their own way to keep and neither should be kept by unexperienced people.


/Lelle

 

[danread]

I must admit, i think i would be more comfortable keeping a venomous snake than a venomous true spider like Phoneutria. The fact that Phoneutria can scale the sides of the enclosure at high speed makes them a lot more difficult to contain, and if they do escape, a lot more difficult to find! At least most of the venomous snakes are a bit more predictable in their movement and can be contained with a high sided enclosure and a snake hook.

 

[Crotalus]

I must admit, i think i would be more comfortable keeping a venomous snake than a venomous true spider like Phoneutria. The fact that Phoneutria can scale the sides of the enclosure at high speed makes them a lot more difficult to contain, and if they do escape, a lot more difficult to find! At least most of the venomous snakes are a bit more predictable in their movement and can be contained with a high sided enclosure and a snake hook.

I rather have a Phoneutria making a run for it and out of the enclosure then a 2,5 m black mamba doing the same...
I never worked with Dendroaspis sp. but one of my closest friends have and the speed a green mamba can go it incredible - since they are arboreal they slide up on your hook in a blink of an eye. Offcourse there are tongs, and trapboxes for these species, but things can get sweaty anyway.
Generalizations are never good but yes, the snake would in most cases be easier to find.

/Lelle

 

[Steven]

considering their size an Atrax or Phoneutria are also easier to step on or smashed with a phonebook then a mamba


(not that i would do that if i had any,.. )

 

[danread]

considering their size an Atrax or Phoneutria are also easier to step on or smashed with a phonebook then a mamba

haha. yes good point Steven!


Lelle,

I agree, there definitely are some snakes that would be much much harder to handle than a true spider. I was thinking mostly of pit vipers and some of the more commonly kept venomous snakes. I don't have any personal experience with venomous snakes, but i imagine pit vipers are more likely to stand their ground and strike than make a mad lunge at you out of the enclosure.

I've no idea how you would contain such a mobile and fast snake as a mamba within a viv. Surely you would be at risk any time the viv was open even a bit?

 

[Steven]

It also depends on what risk you're willing to take and WHY !

what i want to say is:
If you ever come across an Atrax in nature and you're not a spider-hobbyist i guess you're gonna smash it rather then try to catch it,...
If you're a hobbyist and had paid 50$ or more for your atrax,... and it's loose and wild,.. i guess smashing it won't cross your mind,... even if your live is in danger,..

just my opinion

 

[Crotalus]

Lelle,

I agree, there definitely are some snakes that would be much much harder to handle than a true spider. I was thinking mostly of pit vipers and some of the more commonly kept venomous snakes. I don't have any personal experience with venomous snakes, but i imagine pit vipers are more likely to stand their ground and strike than make a mad lunge at you out of the enclosure.

I've no idea how you would contain such a mobile and fast snake as a mamba within a viv. Surely you would be at risk any time the viv was open even a bit?

Not at all. Thats a misconception aswell. Not all viperids are slow sluggish snakes.

/Lelle

 

[Crotalus]

It also depends on what risk you're willing to take and WHY !

what i want to say is:
If you ever come across an Atrax in nature and you're not a spider-hobbyist i guess you're gonna smash it rather then try to catch it,...
If you're a hobbyist and had paid 50$ or more for your atrax,... and it's loose and wild,.. i guess smashing it won't cross your mind,... even if your live is in danger,..

just my opinion

I wouldnt think twice before I kill it then risking another person then me to come in harm, that goes for all my potent species.
If you are not willing to kill em off just because you have a monetery interest in them, then you should not keep them.

/Lelle

 

[Wade]

I'm not sure what is meant by "taboo", a search of this forum will reveal many threads, about them, including some popular long ones. If you mean just that they're not available to buy, there's good reasons for that.

Atrax is Austaralian, and Australian regulations are very tight. They don't allow any exort of vertebrates, and invertebrates must be captive bred multiple generations before they can be legally exported. Even if someone did that with Atrax, Aussie postal regs forbid shipping Atrax for saftey reasons. So, they are not available here unless someone smuggled them in, in which case they'd be quiet about it.

The absence of Phoneutria is a little more puzzling, because even though many SA coountries are closed, surely the genus occurs in SOME of the remaining countries. My only guess there is that the pet trade does not percieve much of a demand so they are not collected, or else there is some sort of internal saftey reg as in Australia.

Wade

 

[Steven]

I wouldnt think twice before I kill it then risking another person then me to come in harm, that goes for all my potent species.
If you are not willing to kill em off just because you have a monetery interest in them, then you should not keep them.

/Lelle

does this mean you would think twice if it was only you who was in danger ?

 

[Sheri]

does this mean you would think twice if it was only you who was in danger ?

I'm pretty sure he included himself here as well if there was an escape or a situation he couldn't contain.

That said, Lelle lives alone and adopts a small amount of risk everytime he maintains his collection, which is probably why he explicitly identified that measure of action if someone else was at risk.

Big difference between Lelle keeping hot animals and knowing what he is doing and having a few hot escapes in the apartment where people have NO idea what they are dealing with.

As soon as there is an escape, and it is not found, it poses some danger to anyone that may come in contact with it, Lelle or otherwise. Dealing with it as required, including killing the animal, if required, is part of the responsibility that must come with keeping hots.

 

[Crotalus]

I agree Sheri.
I should have clarified that I would chose to kill it incase I experience a bite and I couldnt secure the animal in a safe way because of that. Then, to prevent that anyone comes into my apartment - or that the animal ecapes into my neighbors place, I would prefer to kill it.

/Lelle

 

[Steven]

allright,... clear for me now 2

 

[galeogirl]

I believe that I had a Phoneutria in my possession at one point. It was found at the local grocery store in the produce department when I happened to be there. I convinced the stockboy not to kill it and to let me catch it instead. I wasn't sure what it was at the time, but I suspected and was very careful when catching it in the deli cup the stockboy brought to me. I wasn't able to find any information on it at the time that I had it, even took it to some exotics shows to show it to other breeders and dealers. Talking to people on here has pretty much convinced me that it was a Phoneutria.

I had it for a few years before it died (probably of old age). It was a fascinating specimen.

I'd own one again for sure under the right conditions, but I'd always protect myself or another person from a dangerous animal in my care, even if it meant killing it.

 

[noonang]

Of course not

Not many hot speices are sold over the counter anywhere. No matter if its a scorpion or snake or spider. You have to go looking for one in any country unless there found in the wild.

 

[Crotalus]

I believe that I had a Phoneutria in my possession at one point. It was found at the local grocery store in the produce department when I happened to be there. I convinced the stockboy not to kill it and to let me catch it instead. I wasn't sure what it was at the time, but I suspected and was very careful when catching it in the deli cup the stockboy brought to me. I wasn't able to find any information on it at the time that I had it, even took it to some exotics shows to show it to other breeders and dealers. Talking to people on here has pretty much convinced me that it was a Phoneutria.

What made you think it was Phoneutria? There are a number of ctenids that looks very much like a Phoneutria, such as Ctenus sp., Oligoctenus sp, and even Cupennius sp. might be mistaken for P.
Did you see any defensive display?


/Lelle

 

[galeogirl]

The descriptions and subsequent photos I've seen of Phoneutria species are what make me think that's what I had. Pale brown, leggy, smooth-looking body. Incredibly aggressive and fast.

I didn't have the internet at the time that I had that specimen in my care (this was almost a decade ago), but the pictures posted on here recently of the person handling the Phoneutria look a heck of a lot like the spider I had.