White vinegar as a spider killer? Best clear container for photography?

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

1) Does vinegar really kill spiders? I'm skeptical.

I'm posting this, not because I want to kill spiders, but because I want to protect them. Online, you'll find tons of sites claiming white vinegar kills black widows. My experience has been otherwise. Some of my rescues were doused by my mother, including the sling-now-adult, seven-legged Patty Black. I have asked my mother a million times if she's sure she sprayed Patty directly. She always says, "I think so."

I've watched adult black widows run from vinegar, but didn't see any of them die. After my mother sprayed a bunch of adults living under chairs on her patio, they ran, but not long after, there were adult widows under the chairs again. I suspect they simply ran away and came back. Now most of these spiders are living in enclosures under my piano.

So, this morning, I cleaned a potential habitat for my largest sling, Hannibal, who ate pretty much everyone else in the hatching jar. Before I put any spider in this slightly vinegar-coated jar, I would like confirmation that white vinegar sucks as a spider killer...or get ideas for clear containers for medium-sized slings. I want to document their changes / growth with photos and microscopes.

2) Additional question: Can you recommend very clear enclosures for medium and large black widows?

Below is a so-so image of Hannibal, taken with a microscope. One reason I want to move him / her—I suspect "her"—is to have a smudge-free enclosure with fewer reflections from which to document her transformation.


Thanks in advance,

Mother of Widows

 

[Dry Desert]

1) Does vinegar really kill spiders? I'm skeptical.

I'm posting this, not because I want to kill spiders, but because I want to protect them. Online, you'll find tons of sites claiming white vinegar kills black widows. My experience has been otherwise. Some of my rescues were doused by my mother, including the sling-now-adult, seven-legged Patty Black. I have asked my mother a million times if she's sure she sprayed Patty directly. She always says, "I think so."

I've watched adult black widows run from vinegar, but didn't see any of them die. After my mother sprayed a bunch of adults living under chairs on her patio, they ran, but not long after, there were adult widows under the chairs again. I suspect they simply ran away and came back. Now most of these spiders are living in enclosures under my piano.

So, this morning, I cleaned a potential habitat for my largest sling, Hannibal, who ate pretty much everyone else in the hatching jar. Before I put any spider in this slightly vinegar-coated jar, I would like confirmation that white vinegar sucks as a spider killer...or get ideas for clear containers for medium-sized slings. I want to document their changes / growth with photos and microscopes.

2) Additional question: Can you recommend very clear enclosures for medium and large black widows?

Below is a so-so image of Hannibal, taken with a microscope. One reason I want to move him / her—I suspect "her"—is to have a smudge-free enclosure with fewer reflections from which to document her transformation.


Thanks in advance,

Mother of Widows

View attachment 431403

Don't know about the vinegar question, someone else can answer that one.

Regarding the ideal container, I would imagine a small glass fish tank would suffice.
Acrylic tends to mark and shows up on the photo.

When using flash towards a reflective surface, angle the flash so that the light from the flash does not come straight back into the lens.
Also using a polorising filter on the lens will eliminate problems with reflective surfaces.

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

Don't know about the vinegar question, someone else can answer that one.

Regarding the ideal container, I would imagine a small glass fish tank would suffice.
Acrylic tends to mark and shows up on the photo.

When using flash towards a reflective surface, angle the flash so that the light from the flash does not come straight back into the lens.
Also using a polorising filter on the lens will eliminate problems with reflective surfaces.

I have a few glass jars (one kinda looks like a fish bowl) I might try...see if I can get the right angle to avoid reflections. Thanks! I think my camera has a setting for taking photos through glass and I do have a CPL filter. I will have to see how the microscope does.

 

[The Snark]

Does vinegar really kill spiders? I'm skeptical.

No. Mild solutions of acetic acid as in vinegar <10% acetic - usually 5% - is neither particularly wet, molecularly speaking, nor toxic to animals. It is a minor selective germicidal agent and is found in nature, quite commonly where organic matter is decomposing. It is also mildly noxious and used as a defense deterrent by certain animals. Concentrated acetic acid up to glacial @ 99.7% is a hazard but not found in nature, or in the average non psychotic household.

As an afterthought, there may be genetic instructions in some animals to avoid locations where acids are present. Acid detection is not limited to olfactory cells. What else detects them is uncertain. Certain animals, often found in parasites, have a genetic instruction sub routine that tells them to stop breathing. They can hold their breath for minutes or even hours.

 

[mantidsRcool]

It is also mildly noxious and used as a defense deterrent by certain animals.

let's ask another arachnid about vinegar...

 

[The Snark]

let's ask another arachnid about vinegar...

Welcome to the world of allomones. Right out of the book of weird science. Take the vinegaroon in that video. Packing 85% acetic acid along with other acids. Why 85%? Higher concentrations will damage to animal packing them and or the processes involved are beyond it's chemical capability. A few thousand years of trial and error experiments by mom nature.
For those who are curious about the vinegaroon and numerous other insects, the process of creating these noxious defense chemicals is extremely sophisticated. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/allomone
We are talking chemical warfare here, mobile chemical factories and even the use of explosives.

(For the chem students, check out the weapons factory of the bombadier beetle. Producing a highly noxious chemical injected into a reaction chamber where peroxidase is employed very similar to the rocket engine sending satellites into space.)

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

let's ask another arachnid about vinegar...

Good point. I hadn't even thought about vinegaroons...LOL!

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

No. Mild solutions of acetic acid as in vinegar <10% acetic - usually 5% - is neither particularly wet, molecularly speaking, nor toxic to animals. It is a minor selective germicidal agent and is found in nature, quite commonly where organic matter is decomposing. It is also mildly noxious and used as a defense deterrent by certain animals. Concentrated acetic acid up to glacial @ 99.7% is a hazard but not found in nature, or in the average non psychotic household.

As an afterthought, there may be genetic instructions in some animals to avoid locations where acids are present. Acid detection is not limited to olfactory cells. What else detects them is uncertain. Certain animals, often found in parasites, have a genetic instruction sub routine that tells them to stop breathing. They can hold their breath for minutes or even hours.

Hmmm...interesting to find out my skepticism was warranted. LOL @ "non-psychotic household"...although I do keep black widows and some people may think that, in and of itself, makes me psychotic.

Someone on FB suggested soap and vinegar kills widows instantly, but without testing it, I'm skeptical of that, too.

My mother bought a spider-specific pesticide that made a widow sick. I came back a few days after it was sprayed. It wasn't terribly coordinated, and I was forced to put it out of its misery.

I'm thinking WD40 might work on spiders because it would coat the book lungs and make breathing impossible.

The only things I know work are 1) squishing them or 2) removing them. I prefer the latter, but I can't have thousands of pet black widows and my mother's property is a bit overrun with them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Reluctant Widow Mother]

Don't know about the vinegar question, someone else can answer that one.

Regarding the ideal container, I would imagine a small glass fish tank would suffice.
Acrylic tends to mark and shows up on the photo.

When using flash towards a reflective surface, angle the flash so that the light from the flash does not come straight back into the lens.
Also using a polorising filter on the lens will eliminate problems with reflective surfaces.

I put my two largest hatchlings in glass jars, one of which looks like a very small fishbowl. I have photography homework to do today, so I have to save my camera batteries and get everything ready. When I'm able to take pics of the hatchlings through the glass, I'll let you know how it goes.

I think most of the students in my photography class think I'm mental: lots of pictures of spiders and snakes. 'Tis the season...Happy Halloween!

 

[The Snark]

suggested soap and vinegar kills widows instantly

Gack! The great vinegar phenomenon rears it's head yet again. Let's address it first. Common vinegar is 95% water and 5% mildly toxic acetic acid which = water with a low pH which inhibits bacterial growth. At a pH of 3.2 bacteria quit growing which is why acidity is used as a food preservative.

On the other paw, apple cider vinegar accelerates peristalsis, the natural muscular contractions that accelerates digestion by causing various chemical activities in the intestines to increase. It also contains enzymes which aid in digestion. Got a tummy gronk going? A tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in a cup of water can shut it down in a minute or two by stopping bad news bacteria from growing while kicking your digestion into high gear.

Now soap. Any effective surfactant will cause an animal to drown. But spiders have an on demand cardiovascular and respiratory system. Unmoving they are in a state of natural torpor and it can take an hour or more for them to drown and their lungs must remain covered by the low specific gravity solution. The most effective surfactant in the average household is laundry detergent.
Want to go bananas on the drowning front head to the local fire station and see if you can talk them into giving you a couple of ounces of Wet Water. An ultra powerful surfactant we use to retard fires by getting things really really wet. BTW, water isn't particularly wet. A couple of ounces of wet water in a gallon of water = foams forever plus 3 days. We spilled about a quart on the launch pad at the fire station and the genius fire fighters tried hosing it away instead of soaking it up first. Had a river of foam running down the main street to the harbor and the fishermen and local environmentalists went berserk. Definitely retards all aquatic life. Speaking from experience you never want to get hit by a quick attack spraying wet water unless you were ready to take an hour long shower anyway.

Back to killing spiders. The on demand cardio-repiratory system is why they are so resistant to pesticides and drowning. Use of a fumigant toxin as in Chaindrite<TM> combines a powerful toxic liquid, aerosol and gaseous substance which gives critter life nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide.

 

[darkness975]

The spray of a vinegaroon is a thousand fold more potent than regular household vinegar.

 

[The Snark]

The spray of a vinegaroon is a thousand fold more potent than regular household vinegar.

Off on one of my favorite tangents here. While technically the vinegar of Uropygi is about 12 times more concentrated than household vinegar @ ~5.6% acetic acid this is only the tip of the iceberg. The substance the vinegaroon sprays is rich in Acetobacteraceae which are a family of bacteria that are hyperactive in the presence of oyxgen. The spray from the animal sets off a complex chain reaction both chemical and electrical that becomes even more hyperactive when it comes into contact with organic materials as found in the lungs and other body parts of an animal. Simplified, a bleaching agent as powerful as liquid chlorines that releases aldehydes, ketones and other organic acids along with releasing electrons. The result being the chemical ferments the body parts that got sprayed. Very nasty electrochemical process you don't want going on in your lungs. And it can get worse. The chemical contains the bacteria which continues the fermentation process as long as it is in the presence of oxygen and carbohydrate molecules.

All the above glurp is why the wineries fill the vats the grapes are processed in with nitrogen - eliminating oxygen. With oxygen present, wines will quickly turn into bacteria rich vinegar.

Acetic Acid Bacteria: Physiology and Carbon Sources Oxidation

Acetic acid bacteria (AAB) are obligately aerobic bacteria within the family Acetobacteraceae, widespread in sugary, acidic and alcoholic niches. They are known for their ability to partially oxidise a variety of carbohydrates and to release the corresponding ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov