When making a communal what size for enclosure?

[Royalty]

I want to eventually get a communal of Balfouri but I am not sure how much size is the general guide when setting them up. They should have more space than the standard rule for a single T. I heard not to overdo the space since they will set out to make their own territories.

 

[testdasi]

I want to eventually get a communal of Balfouri but I am not sure how much size is the general guide when setting them up. They should have more space than the standard rule for a single T. I heard not to overdo the space since they will set out to make their own territories.

First, note that my reply (and likely all the replies you will get) are likely anecdotal (i.e. from experience).
There hasn't been any scientific study (that I know of) so keep that in mind.

My experience suggests the balfouri is truly communal, as opposed to just tolerant like the other species. With the balfouri, they tend to congregate into the same burrow (or set of connected burrows) even if they are offered a ridiculously oversized enclosure. I'm not promoting a ridiculously oversized tank, I'm just saying they are very forgiving if you end up with too big a tank.
They are also semi-arboreal - they really have no problem hanging out on branches / web above ground but they hang out horizontally (i.e. not vertically like true arboreals). So vertical space (with anchor points for web) actually counts.
Just for reference, I found an Exo Terra 12"x12"x12" (or 30cm^3 in metric) cube perfect size for 10x balfouri at 2" (5cm) diagonal leg span (DLS). Not so large that there is vast amount of empty space but large enough that my water dish is still not webbed over (yet - there's an avalanche of webbed dirt that miraculously stops just next to the edge of the water dish). I do have several pieces of spiderwood to add vertical space as well.

Then there's the rest of the communal-able species (e.g. Pokies / Neoholothele incei). They will eat each other if given enough space to be territorial. Not only that, they will eat each other if separated for anything more than a few hours (they seem to "forget", for lack of better terms).
From my observation (and speculation!), a "territory" for N. incei is approximately a square with 2x DLS as diagonal and a "territory" for a Pokie is approximately a 3:2 rectangle with 2x DLS as diagonal.

• For N. incei, you want floor space such that at any one time, there are always at least 2 T's in the same territory.
• For Pokies, you want WALL space such that at any one time, there are always at least 2 T's in the same territory.

Sound very mathematical (cuz I like Maths) but essentially you need floor area of 2x [squared DLS] for first T and add 1 [squared DLS] for each additional T for N. incei. For Pokies it's quite a bit more complicated since you have to count 3 walls as "floor area" (so things will look quite a bit more cramped than most people are comfortable with) and use rectangle area instead of square. Why 3 walls? Pokies tend to either avoid the very top or the very bottom (depending on tarantuality and living conditions so it's never the full wall space that is used).
Reiterate: the above is 100% anecdotal and is completely not scientific, despite my effort to make it mathematical (because that's how my brain operates).

Caveat: I only have had communals from same egg sac. I have seen a balfouri supposedly from a different sac living communally with non-sac-mates but don't have personal experience doing that.

 

[jrh3]

First, note that my reply (and likely all the replies you will get) are likely anecdotal (i.e. from experience).
There hasn't been any scientific study (that I know of) so keep that in mind.

I would say Tom Moran has proven them to be communal through a scientific study. He has years of documentation on the Balfouri communal to construct a hypothesis, analyze data, and draw a conclusion.

 

[moricollins]

I would say Tom Moran has proven them to be communal through a scientific study. He has years of documentation on the Balfouri communal to construct a hypothesis, analyze data, and draw a conclusion.

Oh? was the paper published in a peer reviewed journal? That's the standard for a scientific study.

 

[Smotzer]

I would say Tom Moran has proven them to be communal through a scientific study. He has years of documentation on the Balfouri communal to construct a hypothesis, analyze data, and draw a conclusion.

The problem with that is,it is, and probably always will be that such info or data is correlational and not causal. It doesn’t prove that they are truly communal or prefer it just that it can be done. Correlational data is dangerous in that it neither proves anything, just simply draws a line between two points excluding all other data and variables and to the mass public who generally doesn’t look at where their info is coming from can be misleading. Most data about stuff that the public believes isn’t actually causal but correlational.
I bet if people experimented enough there would be other species that someone could have success with keeping in multiple numbers, but doesn’t prove much just that it can possibly be done.

 

[Royalty]

The problem with that is,it is, and probably always will be that such info or data is correlational and not causal. It doesn’t prove that they are truly communal or prefer it just that it can be done. Correlational data is dangerous in that it neither proves anything, just simply draws a line between two points excluding all other data and variables and to the mass public who generally doesn’t look at where their info is coming from can be misleading. Most data about stuff that the public believes isn’t actually causal but correlational.
I bet if people experimented enough there would be other species that someone could have success with keeping in multiple numbers, but doesn’t prove much just that it can possibly be done.

I think it could be suspected if groups were found in the wild, but most T's seem to be living in their own burrows. Really throwing a bunch together to experiment could lead to a lot of disaster. Not many people would be willing to risk the lives of multiple t's. There was a bit of a saying that "all pokies can be kept communal" but some species like the rufilata was shown to only "put up with it" for so long.

I happen to love balfouri and they have shown "true communal" behaviours such as sharing food etc.

 

[Nightstalker47]

Yes, they can work but cannibalism still happens at times as well.

Either way hes asking for tips from those with experience keeping these communally. Not whether or not its backed by science.

 

[jrh3]

I want to eventually get a communal of Balfouri but I am not sure how much size is the general guide when setting them up. They should have more space than the standard rule for a single T. I heard not to overdo the space since they will set out to make their own territories.

My Balfouri communal was a 5 gallon tank. With 5 slings in it. They are all around 1 inch DLS. They were perfectly fine in that tank. Webbed the whole thing up within a month. The only reason I separated them was that I couldn’t keep tabs on all of them. I knew they were all eating but I didn’t know who was eating and how much or who was in premolt because I never saw them all at once. With them separated I can monitor if each sling is eating and what not.

Would I ever do a communal again? Probably not. Just because I like knowing who is who in each enclosure. I never saw more than 3 at a time.

They did tend to work together helping each other web tunnels, one of the bigger ones would drag food back to the den. Couldn’t see if he was sharing food but it seemed like it.

I can say from the short time they were together that they do work as a communal should and DO interact positively with each other.

They never tried to make their own territory and 5 gallon tank is huge for 5 one inch slings. They stayed in the same burrow. Ventured out at night then came back to their burrow.

 

[Royalty]

My Balfouri communal was a 5 gallon tank. With 5 slings in it. They are all around 1 inch DLS. They were perfectly fine in that tank. Webbed the whole thing up within a month. The only reason I separated them was that I couldn’t keep tabs on all of them. I knew they were all eating but I didn’t know who was eating and how much or who was in premolt because I never saw them all at once. With them separated I can monitor if each sling is eating and what not.

Would I ever do a communal again? Probably not. Just because I like knowing who is who in each enclosure. I never saw more than 3 at a time.

They did tend to work together helping each other web tunnels, one of the bigger ones would drag food back to the den. Couldn’t see if he was sharing food but it seemed like it.

I can say from the short time they were together that they do work as a communal should and DO interact positively with each other.

Hm, yeah as slings it would worry me a bit. I am still newish to keeping so I like having close tabs on my slings.

 

[testdasi]

Hm, yeah as slings it would worry me a bit. I am still newish to keeping so I like having close tabs on my slings.

I think the biggest risk to a communal M. balfouri setup is a worried keeper.

 

[CJJon]

Communal attempts always seem to be met with moral objections in that it is seen as cruel to put several T's in the same enclosure. Certainly this is due to the very real concern that cannibalism will eventually result in one fat female.

So what?

Is it really cruel from the T's perspective? Of course not. Not any more cruel than dropping in a bunch of roaches or crickets to be chased down and consumed. Frankly I see nothing wrong with an informed attempt at keeping a communal...even if the worst-case happens.

Do What Thou Wilt