What kind of centipede is this? (Israel)

[Havoc]

Hey, found this centipede here in Israel and really curious what it could be exactly. Some nice colors (orange) on front and back, relatively small I think (or medium size, I've seen bigger ones around here).



The most common one here is Scolopendra cingulata, thinking perhaps its this? Though the body color is a bit different from what I've seen, seems more grey/slightly blue-ish (also the legs).

Would be nice to keep it as a pet, but how poisonous could these be (in case I accidentally get stung when I have to handle it)? As far as I know I'm not allergic/sensitive to insect stings (been stung before by wasps and a bee once) but better safe than sorry, not sure how similar their venom is.

 

[Greasylake]

It looks like cingulata I think.

 

[NYAN]

I think it may be Scolopendra mirabilis. It also could be a younger cingulata.

Would be nice to keep it as a pet, but how poisonous could these be (in case I accidentally get stung when I have to handle it)?

Unless you’re planning on eating it, don’t worry how poisonous it is. It is venomous though. Also, centipedes do not sting; they bite. Don’t handle it unless you’re prepared to get bitten.

 

[Havoc]

Right, venomous. Somehow I always mix those two up. Also since they have two stingers (well pointy things/ legs) I'd figure it would be called a sting, not bite (they don't use their mouth parts)?

Also Scolopendra mirabilis does seem like a match, especially with the leg color. What are distinct differences between both species? Basically cingulata gets bigger?

 

[NYAN]

Right, venomous. Somehow I always mix those two up. Also since they have two stingers I'd figure it would be called a sting, not bite (they don't use their mouth parts)?

Centipedes bite with their mouthparts. What two stingers are you referring to? Centipedes do not have any stingers.

Also Scolopendra mirabilis does seem like a match, especially with those "neon blue legs". Does cingulata have that as well?

When the pede is young cingulata can have a similar coloration. About how long is your pede?

 

[Greasylake]

Also since they have two stingers I'd figure it would be called a sting, not bite (they don't use their mouth parts)?

They don't have stingers, they're called maxillipeds which are basically modified legs with the ability to inject venom. It's a bite really, not a sting.

 

[Havoc]

Centipedes bite with their mouthparts. What two stingers are you referring to? Centipedes do not have any stingers.

The "maxillipeds which are basically modified legs" (Thanks Greasylake). I figured those were similar to stingers, not mouth parts. My bad! I'm new to centipedes.

When the pede is young cingulata can have a similar coloration. About how long is your pede?

I'm bad at measuring, but I think about 10cm / 4 inch.

 

[Staehilomyces]

Well, they aren't mouthparts either. They aren't even part of the head - they're attached to the segment behind the head.

 

[Bill S]

Unless you’re planning on eating it, don’t worry how poisonous it is. It is venomous though.

This is one of my pet peeves. Somewhere along the way a hobbyist (don't know whether it was someone in the reptile community or the arachnid community) invented the nonsensical idea that venoms were not poisons and that poisons were only those things that killed you if you swallowed them. Scientifically and medically this is completely false - but it sounds "clever" so it keeps getting repeated.

Venoms are biologically produced poisons that are generally (but not always) injected. Whoever came up with the idea that poisons are only things that you swallow somehow completely overlooked the many kinds of poisons that can be inhaled, absorbed through the skin, or injected. (Try telling the inmate on death row that the lethal injection he's about to receive isn't a poison unless he swallows it.)

So yes - snakes and scorpions are poisonous. And venomous. And it's correct to call them poisonous, but more detailed if you call them venomous.

 

[Scoly]

Guys, this person is new to the forum, and it's his/her first thread. I think we can do better than hijack it to rant about pet peeves and go OTT on technicalities, this is what puts people off the hobby and this forum

@Havoc as I said in your gallery thread, this is almost certainly S.mirabilis. Officially, colouration is not a valid means of identifying a centipede, but this is a rather unique pattern, and the range matches, so it's unlikely to be anything else (unless its a S.morsitans disguised as Smirabilis which just about happens) . It is not a juvenile at 10cm, so we can discount the S.cingulata hypothesis (the young of S.cingulata do indeed have quite different colouration from the adults and are often very colourful).

Here is what I have on the distribution of S.mirabilis:

Distribution: Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Tanzania (including Zanzibar), Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Yemen (including Perim Island), Iraq, Iran, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, India, Vietnam.

And the most important thing no one else is mentioning is that it has mycosis and will soon die in your care if you do not move it to a really dry and well ventilated enclosure.

Here is quite a good reference on old world centipedes, though bear in mind things change over time: https://brill.com/view/journals/ijm/3/1/article-p83.xml?crawler=true

As for the potency of its venom, its nothing to worry about. How much it hurts really depends how much venom they pump in, and that's a big variable, but you're likely to be below ibuprofen level with this species.

 

[NYAN]

This is one of my pet peeves. Somewhere along the way a hobbyist (don't know whether it was someone in the reptile community or the arachnid community) invented the nonsensical idea that venoms were not poisons and that poisons were only those things that killed you if you swallowed them. Scientifically and medically this is completely false - but it sounds "clever" so it keeps getting repeated.

Calling something that is venomous poisonous is incorrect. Calling the toxins themselves poisons is different in my view.

Being venomous implies that the animal injects toxins into the victim via some form of transmission such as a bite or sting. Venom can be sprayed by some species also such as Parabuthus and Naja species. Poison is something that is injected, ingested, absorbed through the skin and probably inhaled. There is a difference, which is why people (correctly) refer to spiders as being venomous and plants as being poisonous.

but more detailed if you call them venomous.

Good, so let’s continue to correctly call them venomous please.

 

[Staehilomyces]

Wait, where's the mycosis? I can't seem to see it.

 

[NYAN]

Wait, where's the mycosis? I can't seem to see it.

Head and antennae?

 

[Scoly]

Wait, where's the mycosis? I can't seem to see it.

There are blotches on its head, forcipule, second tergite, and the visible antenna looks like it's got it too. Plus the way it's holding its forcipules agape isn't healthy either, classic mycotic centipede poise.

Here is a photo of my specimen, a couple of weeks before it died. I had only just got back into keeping centipedes at the time and didn't know about mycosis. It had turned really sluggish and docile - I thought it was going to moult, so assumed it needed the humidity, which is what eventually killed it. On this one the mycosis affected the legs, and though the head is out of focus you can discern the blackness on the forcipules and antennae (it actually looks less pronounced on the head than the OP's specimen).

http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/scolopendra-mirabilis-i-think.35830/

And here is a healthy specimen for reference. Note the complete absence of blotches of any kind:

http://arachnoboards.com/gallery/scolopendra-mirabilis-tanzanian-neon-blue-leg-centipede.4365/

(stupid forum won't let me embed photos from its own domain...)

 

[Bill S]

Good, so let’s continue to correctly call them venomous please.

Venomous is not more correct - as I said, it's only more detailed. Poisonous is just as correct. Kind of like saying "I drive a car" vs "I drive a Honda". Both are equally correct, but one supplies a bit more detail.

I have no problem with someone preferring to use "venomous". That's their choice. It only bothers me when someone tries to "correct" someone who uses the word poisonous - when poisonous is just as correct.

 

[Havoc]

Guys, this person is new to the forum, and it's his/her first thread. I think we can do better than hijack it to rant about pet peeves and go OTT on technicalities, this is what puts people off the hobby and this forum

@Havoc as I said in your gallery thread, this is almost certainly S.mirabilis. Officially, colouration is not a valid means of identifying a centipede, but this is a rather unique pattern, and the range matches, so it's unlikely to be anything else (unless its a S.morsitans disguised as Smirabilis which just about happens) . It is not a juvenile at 10cm, so we can discount the S.cingulata hypothesis (the young of S.cingulata do indeed have quite different colouration from the adults and are often very colourful).

Here is what I have on the distribution of S.mirabilis:

Distribution: Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Tanzania (including Zanzibar), Israel, Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Yemen (including Perim Island), Iraq, Iran, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, India, Vietnam.

And the most important thing no one else is mentioning is that it has mycosis and will soon die in your care if you do not move it to a really dry and well ventilated enclosure.

Here is quite a good reference on old world centipedes, though bear in mind things change over time: https://brill.com/view/journals/ijm/3/1/article-p83.xml?crawler=true

As for the potency of its venom, its nothing to worry about. How much it hurts really depends how much venom they pump in, and that's a big variable, but you're likely to be below ibuprofen level with this species.

Thank you! That was really helpful, I'll try to move it to a dry place and see if it gets cured of it's mycosis.

By the way what is the difference between Scolopendra morsitans and Scolopendra mirabilis ? When I search for either one, they're seemingly both mixed up / the same? Both are called Tanzanian blue leg centipedes?

And the venom does indeed not seem to be that strong, I let it walk on my hand and it bit me, but I expected way more pain. This just felt like a wasp sting, it didn't even swell up that much.

 

[Scoly]

By the way what is the difference between Scolopendra morsitans and Scolopendra mirabilis ? When I search for either one, they're seemingly both mixed up / the same? Both are called Tanzanian blue leg centipedes?

As far as I know only mirabilis is called "Tanzanian blue leg" but common names really shouldn't be relied on. Even the naturalists seem to have confused the two at times, and understandably so as they are so closely related. My take on it is that the Scolopendra genus originated in East Asia, and spread west and into Africa as cingulata, before branching out into morsitans, mirabilis and the rest (but those two species have also travelled back to Asia since, and morsitans is all over the world now). The ability of centipedes to move long distances including overseas on driftwood and later boats probably messes with any neat source migration map we might have been able to put together.

 

[kermitdsk]

The "Tanzania neon leg" is not a Scolopendra mirabilis! It is a unknown species! I only saw one 100% real mirabilis at picture and that pede had no kind of blue coloration.

 

[Scoly]

The "Tanzania neon leg" is not a Scolopendra mirabilis! It is a unknown species! I only saw one 100% real mirabilis at picture and that pede had no kind of blue coloration.

Have you got a link for that?

Technically "Tanzania neon leg" is just a common name, so it means nothing. You can probably find really blue Ethmostigmus trigonopodus in Tanzania and sell them as that. What is clear is that the specimen which Havoc found in Isreal is identical in markings to the animals which have originally been sold as "Tanzania neon leg".

Digging deeper, it seems you have a valid point about these not really being Scolopendra mirabilis! This is what Scolopendra mirabilis head plate looks like according to https://brill.com/view/journals/ijm/3/1/article-p83.xml?crawler=true



Given the amount of work done on African centipedes, I doubt the "Tanzania neon leg" is a new species. I think the most likely scenario is that these are actually just colour form of Scolopendra morsitans.

If you look at some of the Scolopendra morsitans found in northern Egypt, or Western Australia, you can see how this could be the case, from a colouring point.

I think what may have happened is that importers found this beautiful neon blue centipede and assumed it couldn't possibly be Scolopendra morsitans so they tried to match it to another name.

 

[kermitdsk]

Have you got a link for that?

Unfortunately the link don't exist anymore, but I remember Christian Kronmüller said that.

What is clear is that the specimen which Havoc found in Isreal is identical in markings to the animals which have originally been sold as "Tanzania neon leg".

I think the photo is not good enough to say that.

I think the most likely scenario is that these are actually just colour form of Scolopendra morsitans.

I never saw a Scolopendra spec. "Tanzania neon leg" with sexual dimorphisum. But maybe I'm blind if someone here have a "Tanzania neon leg" with sexual dimorphisum that would be extremely interesting.