Venom

[YungRasputin]

recent research has put a thought in my head that I can’t get out - I’m open to criticism on this but it comes down to describing tarantula venom

from all of my research in the past and recently I’ve not found a single tarantula species which has what I would describe as “potent” or “high level” venom as in, venom which can be fatal to a reasonably healthy adult or cause long term physical consequences - when I think of “potent” venom in arachnids i think of specimens like Atrax robustus or Hottentotta tamulus or Androctonus australis or Latrodectus sp.

which is why my recent research into arboreal tarantula venom levels has been most frustrating - people describe Pokies, Baboons, etc as having “potent” or “high level” venom AND YET bite reports indicate that these venoms typically cause pain + a 24-72 hr flu (and in the case of Pokies some lingering symptoms for a couple weeks) - which is no walk in the park, I’m not downplaying how much this sucks but it’s decidedly not a) potentially fatal without immediate medical care or b) carries long term medical consequences like nerve damage or issues related to necrosis (and I would say a majority of bite reports also indicate that people aren’t even going to the hospital for said bites and have been successful in treating these at home)

I v much feel that tarantulas like baboons and pokies should be described as having “medium level” venom given the symptoms described within bite reports and medical data - so why the exaggerations? particularly when in the US certain T species have been targeted by legislatures?

i think having a venom rating system that goes low, medium and high would be super beneficial and more accurate - medium being anything which exceeds the symptoms of a bee/wasp sting (eg: slight swelling, itchiness, etc) yet is not potentially fatal

and what’s with this “i have no scientific studies to back this claim up but since it’s from the OW it has potent venom” thing? it seems illogical to conclude that because OW tarantulas don’t have urticating hairs and *usually* have more portent venom comparative to NW tarantulas that *ALL* OW tarantulas *must* have this “potent” “high level” venom by virtue of existing in the OW doesn’t seem like a solid assumption tbh idk

 

[Wolfram1]

i dont have the time to research this again right now but before i got my first spider i tried to look this up as well and it probably has to do with the complexity of venom needed to subdue their prey, tarantulas having massive dagger like fangs probably wont have to rely as much on their venom to subdue their pray
they can also inject much more venom at once so something less potent might be enough. That doesnt mean however that their venom is any less complex in terms of proteins than any other venom

unlike the new world tarantulas that have their hairs as a defensive weapon shoot a cloud of into the predators face when they try to dig them out, old world tarantulas seem to use their painful bite as a deterrent

there is also very little known about allergies to tarantula venom which i remember reading consisting of shorter proteins than true spider or bee venom, apparently the lenght of the proteins plays a role in how likely you are to develop an allergie


again this is what i remember from 3 years ago, i will try to provide the sources in a week or so, in the meantime pls feel free to correct me, i might missremember

 

[organgrinder79]

Oddly enough this subject comes up a lot and it is kind of a grey area due to the fact that there’s not a lot of bites or the bites just aren’t reported and a lot has to do with the person everyone is different I’m sure there is some research out there due to the fact that they harvest venom for medical purposes

 

[8 legged]

recent research has put a thought in my head that I can’t get out - I’m open to criticism on this but it comes down to describing tarantula venom

from all of my research in the past and recently I’ve not found a single tarantula species which has what I would describe as “potent” or “high level” venom as in, venom which can be fatal to a reasonably healthy adult or cause long term physical consequences - when I think of “potent” venom in arachnids i think of specimens like Atrax robustus or Hottentotta tamulus or Androctonus australis or Latrodectus sp.

which is why my recent research into arboreal tarantula venom levels has been most frustrating - people describe Pokies, Baboons, etc as having “potent” or “high level” venom AND YET bite reports indicate that these venoms typically cause pain + a 24-72 hr flu (and in the case of Pokies some lingering symptoms for a couple weeks) - which is no walk in the park, I’m not downplaying how much this sucks but it’s decidedly not a) potentially fatal without immediate medical care or b) carries long term medical consequences like nerve damage or issues related to necrosis (and I would say a majority of bite reports also indicate that people aren’t even going to the hospital for said bites and have been successful in treating these at home)

I v much feel that tarantulas like baboons and pokies should be described as having “medium level” venom given the symptoms described within bite reports and medical data - so why the exaggerations? particularly when in the US certain T species have been targeted by legislatures?

i think having a venom rating system that goes low, medium and high would be super beneficial and more accurate - medium being anything which exceeds the symptoms of a bee/wasp sting (eg: slight swelling, itchiness, etc) yet is not potentially fatal

and what’s with this “i have no scientific studies to back this claim up but since it’s from the OW it has potent venom” thing? it seems illogical to conclude that because OW tarantulas don’t have urticating hairs and *usually* have more portent venom comparative to NW tarantulas that *ALL* OW tarantulas *must* have this “potent” “high level” venom by virtue of existing in the OW doesn’t seem like a solid assumption tbh idk

As far as I can tell, your thoughts are correct. The tarantula's venom only becomes dangerous if your cardiovascular system is not working properly or an anaphylactic shock creeps in. For most of the OW species the effect of the poison is not known, which means it can be weaker but also stronger. With a venomous snake or, as you mentioned, an atrax, nothing in the field of tarantulas is comparable.

 

[VaporRyder]

I like the following terms:

• ‘not medically significant’ - most new world tarantulas
• ‘medically significant’ - most old world tarantulas
• ‘Russian Roulette’ - Phoneutria, Latrodectus etc.

 

[viper69]

recent research has put a thought in my head that I can’t get out - I’m open to criticism on this but it comes down to describing tarantula venom

from all of my research in the past and recently I’ve not found a single tarantula species which has what I would describe as “potent” or “high level” venom as in, venom which can be fatal to a reasonably healthy adult or cause long term physical consequences - when I think of “potent” venom in arachnids i think of specimens like Atrax robustus or Hottentotta tamulus or Androctonus australis or Latrodectus sp.

which is why my recent research into arboreal tarantula venom levels has been most frustrating - people describe Pokies, Baboons, etc as having “potent” or “high level” venom AND YET bite reports indicate that these venoms typically cause pain + a 24-72 hr flu (and in the case of Pokies some lingering symptoms for a couple weeks) - which is no walk in the park, I’m not downplaying how much this sucks but it’s decidedly not a) potentially fatal without immediate medical care or b) carries long term medical consequences like nerve damage or issues related to necrosis (and I would say a majority of bite reports also indicate that people aren’t even going to the hospital for said bites and have been successful in treating these at home)

I v much feel that tarantulas like baboons and pokies should be described as having “medium level” venom given the symptoms described within bite reports and medical data - so why the exaggerations? particularly when in the US certain T species have been targeted by legislatures?

i think having a venom rating system that goes low, medium and high would be super beneficial and more accurate - medium being anything which exceeds the symptoms of a bee/wasp sting (eg: slight swelling, itchiness, etc) yet is not potentially fatal

and what’s with this “i have no scientific studies to back this claim up but since it’s from the OW it has potent venom” thing? it seems illogical to conclude that because OW tarantulas don’t have urticating hairs and *usually* have more portent venom comparative to NW tarantulas that *ALL* OW tarantulas *must* have this “potent” “high level” venom by virtue of existing in the OW doesn’t seem like a solid assumption tbh idk

Your terms and the ones you mentioned are subjective. Your medium is another’s high or low!

However species which have documented venom that alters heart beating I would consider beyond your medium, but you don’t it would seem. I think your idea of medium is rather foolish.

Who cares what you or I or anyone else thinks on this.

It won’t change anything at all. People are going to buy whatever they want no matter how stupid they are.

Rating systems are stupid, they are for people who don’t take the time to LEARN and RESEARCH BEFORE buying.

Reminds me of rating systems for entertainment- STUPID.

 

[8 legged]

Your terms and the ones you mentioned are subjective. Your medium is another’s high or low!

However species which have documented venom that alters heart beating I would consider beyond your medium, but you don’t it would seem. I think your idea of medium is rather foolish.

Who cares what you or I or anyone else thinks on this.

It won’t change anything at all. People are going to buy whatever they want no matter how stupid they are.

Rating systems are stupid, they are for people who don’t take the time to LEARN and RESEARCH BEFORE buying.

Reminds me of rating systems for entertainment- STUPID.

Well formulated, fits perfectly!

 

[sasker]

tarantulas like baboons and pokies should be described as having “medium level” venom

I suggest you stick your hand in the enclosure of an angry OBT and see if still feel this way All jokes aside, I am not sure that 'potent' should necessarily mean 'fatal' or 'disfiguring'. Many people who have been bitten by, say, a Pokie or an OBT feel the need to seek medical help to deal with the pain and other symptoms. There have been reports of people experiencing episodes of painful cramps months after the bite. I am not sure if I would call that 'medium'.

*ALL* OW tarantulas *must* have this “potent” “high level” venom by virtue of existing in the OW doesn’t seem like a solid assumption tbh idk

There are no bite reports of every single OW tarantula, but I don't recall to have ever seen anyone make the claim that ALL OW tarantulas have potent venom. What I do see is "OW, so likely potent venom". It's much safer to treat every OW as having strong venom than to consider every OW to have mild venom until proven otherwise. There are people who have deliberately let their OW tarantula bite them, but few liked to make this a recurring experiment to compare various OWs. You are more than welcome to try, by the way

I think it is important to have a good system to register bites. The bite report section of AB is not the easiest to navigate, although is is much better than it once was. It's a 'problem' that not a lot of people get bitten. Apparently, those who would report a bite are also those who are careful enough to avoid a bite.

 

[YungRasputin]

Your terms and the ones you mentioned are subjective.

not really since what I’m suggesting is/would be based upon observable + documented phenomena instead of assumptions - i did not come up with some magical system of categorization nor did i flesh out anything extensive; which is to say, i could see factoring in venom which may alter heart rates

It won’t change anything at all. People are going to buy whatever they want no matter how stupid they are.

the purpose i feel of what i was talking about in my OP was both scientific purposes and per the hobby, a means by which people doing research on various species could reasonably gauge what they feel they’re ready for eg: Low Venom: Beginner, Medium: Intermediate, High: Expert (roughly speaking)

Rating systems are stupid, they are for people who don’t take the time to LEARN and RESEARCH BEFORE buying.

why would categorizing venom levels and toxicity take the place of researching species you intend to keep? i don’t follow

 

[matypants]

It isn’t just venom potency, but also the speed, agility and willingness to deliver it. Unless I’m wrong. I could be. I don’t keep old worlds for these reasons.

 

[YungRasputin]

Many people who have been bitten by, say, a Pokie or an OBT feel the need to seek medical help to deal with the pain and other symptoms. There have been reports of people experiencing episodes of painful cramps months after the bite. I am not sure if I would call that 'medium'.

well, if I’m not mistaken, i did say in my OP that I’m not saying “medium level” venom is something which is pleasurable and that symptoms can persist for awhile after the primary symptoms have dissipated - i think the kind of categorization suggested in my OP would encompasse the multiplicity of symptoms associated with tarantulas

i’m not an expert and i absolutely recognize that for a lot of species there simply isn’t existent data with which to categorize them

There are no bite reports of every single OW tarantula, but I don't recall to have ever seen anyone make the claim that ALL OW tarantulas have potent venom.

ok

What I do see is "OW, so likely potent venom". It's much safer to treat every OW as having strong venom than to consider every OW to have mild venom until proven otherwise.

I never suggested such a thing - my personal practice is to observe the same level of care and attention to detail re: safety protocols for *all* my arachnids uniformly - i treat “low” venom specimens the same as “high” level specimens so as to always maintain good/safe habits and reflexes

There are people who have deliberately let their OW tarantula bite them, but few liked to make this a recurring experiment to compare various OWs. You are more than welcome to try, by the way

that’s silly but i appreciate their contributions to science and the hobby

It isn’t just venom potency, but also the speed, agility and willingness to deliver it. Unless I’m wrong. I could be. I don’t keep old worlds for these reasons.

absolutely, i don’t think venom levels alone should be the sole deciding factor that people should consider when selecting a particular species to keep but a multitude, of course

 

[Wolfram1]

Because venoms are not one thing? They consist of a multitude of different proteins that all do different things?

there are tests for potency but they are not 100% accurate because mice are not humans even if you mathematically determine the lethal amount based on body mass

other than a protein map
or human testing they are truly just lables

 

[YungRasputin]

Because venoms are not one thing? They consist of a multitude of different proteins that all do different things?

I didn’t say they were

there are tests for potency but they are not 100% accurate because mice are not humans even if you mathematically determine the lethal amount based on body mass

you mean the LD50? cuz that’s what i had in mind when writing the OP - well, one of the things but still

 

[Wolfram1]

yes, that kind of potency test is quantifiable, low, medium and high is not

the problem is that it doesnt account for how much the spider will inject on case to case basis

arguably even if an animal had the most potent venom, if it was incapable of injecting a lethal dose and had no other sideeffects it could be considered harmless

 

[viper69]

well, if I’m not mistaken, i did say in my OP that I’m not saying “medium level” venom is something which is pleasurable and that symptoms can persist for awhile after the primary symptoms have dissipated - i think the kind of categorization suggested in my OP would encompasse the multiplicity of symptoms associated with tarantulas

i’m not an expert and i absolutely recognize that for a lot of species there simply isn’t existent data with which to categorize them



ok



I never suggested such a thing - my personal practice is to observe the same level of care and attention to detail re: safety protocols for *all* my arachnids uniformly - i treat “low” venom specimens the same as “high” level specimens so as to always maintain good/safe habits and reflexes



that’s silly but i appreciate their contributions to science and the hobby

Medium is subjective - case closed.

Want science do an LD50

 

[YungRasputin]

yes, that kind of potency test is quantifiable, low, medium and high is not

what I’m suggesting would be, roughly, to take the LD50 and factor in other data and create a broad categorization of venom levels across arachnid species - the whole point of my OP was to create a system backed by science not assumptions - why people are so emotively hostile towards the idea is beyond me tbh

arguably even if an animal had the most potent venom, if it was incapable of injecting a lethal dose and had no other sideeffects it could be considered harmless

one would assume that specimens which are incapable of administering venom would be outliers and would be categorized accordingly

 

[YungRasputin]

Medium is subjective - case closed.

it’s really not tho lol

Want science do an LD50

see my latest response to Wolfram1 that pertains to this

 

[viper69]

it’s really not tho lol



see my latest response to Wolfram1 that pertains to this

The word medium is subjective.

Just like large is subjective too.

 

[YungRasputin]

The word medium is subjective.

Just like large is subjective too.

no it isn’t - for example, given known scorpion species, their sizes collectively, i could say that Hadrurus arizonensis is a large bodied species, Smeringurus mesaensis is a medium bodied species and that Vaejovis brysoni is a small bodied species - size is an extremely easy thing to categorize in those terms

 

[sasker]

the whole point of my OP was to create a system backed by science not assumptions

To what end, though. You mention in your first post that it would be 'super beneficial' to downplay the potency of tarantula venom, but I have my doubts. Everyone who knows a bit about tarantulas knows that there have not been any reports of tarantula bites that resulted in deaths. They have also read bite reports and know getting bitten by OW species is no pick nick. How exactly do these people benefit from labels like low, medium and high? The only thing I can think it would do, is that people with no understanding and knowledge will misunderstand the potency of tarantula venom.

why people are so emotively hostile towards the idea is beyond me tbh

They are not. Their hostility against the idea is rational. The last thing this hobby needs is someone to downplay the potency of tarantula venom.

This hobby already attracts too many idiots already. When they hear from a pet shop employee that an H. maculata has medium venom, they think 'bee sting'. This is likely to result in more bites, more hospitalizations, more bad press for the hobby, and more restrictive legislation. You mentioned that tarantula species are targeted by legislatures. Laws against tarantula keeping mostly result from emotional reactions from the public. This has always been the case and this will not change. News reports like 'Baby bitten by dangerous pet spider' could cause an outrage. No-one is interested in 'medium' and 'high' potency at that moment.

Medium is subjective - case closed.

I agree. Try shopping for clothes and compare a US large with what is considered large in an Asian country. As for the OP's example of scorpion sizes, it would help a novice in the world of scorpion keeping much more to give the size of the scorpion in inches or centimeters than to say 'it's a medium scorpion'. Same as with tarantula venom. Knowing what the venom does is more useful than hearing 'it's medium'.

For everyone interested in the potency of OBT venom, have a look at this video. Apparently, P. murinus venom is much worse that H. gigas. The pain is real