Unknown cause of death, please help

[David2006]

Hello, my name is David, I'm 16 years old, from Germany and had my tarantula (Grammostola Pulchra) since more than three years (died today) and I read very much in the internet about the care. You can see my terrarium (from exo terra) where I had her since three years. Everything I had was buyed and clean (substrate, cave, petridish). I kept the temperature not lower than 18 degrees celsius. But all the time she was all right, I heard that if you are comfortable with the temperature, than youre tarantula too, and it seemed like this. But since her last molt (12th September 2022), she stoped moving, I ignored it at first, even when I noticed that something was off, I hoped that she needed just more time to recover (room temperature was about 20 degrees). But after a week (actually I think a week and half), there haven't changed anything, she was still laying on her tummy but there was no death curl, or any poses I saw her do normally after a molt like that stretching. Her exoskeleton seemed to be harden, and I decided to check on her, after I carefully tapped her with my soft paint brush, I noticed, that she was extremely weak. She couldn't lift her body and move her legs. I mean she was still reacting and moving the legs, but very slow and not much. Her legs were on the sides near to the body (like dehydrated). I was scared, so I put her into ICU (after searching on the internet on the 25th September). I carefully took her on the legs to place her on the big spoon I had. I put her then into a box with holes, wet paper and a little dish to drink. And put her with the box into the big terrarium with my first heat source ever(25watt heating cable) and put her on top of a other box, to prevent heating from underneath. I watched the temperature 3 times a day and kept it at 20-24 degrees to prevent overheating. Well it was all quick and improvised and maybe stupid. But after 2-3 days in the ICU, she didn't changed, except the pose of her legs, their were placed normal, but were still to weak to lift her body up. So I decided to hydrate her per hand. I did the same with the spoon and layed her on the back (like I saw it on the internet) and put with a pipette, small drops of water on her mouth, and left her for about a hour, and then did it two times more and put her back, with the mouth into the dish and she seemed to get better the days after, but still couldn't walk. And I can imagine that it was stress for her, but I felt like I had no choice. I kept her alive for seven days and tried to find anything on the Internet that coul help her. But there wasn't anything fitting the things she had, I checked for parasites,dks, dehydration, bad molt, injuries, healthy poop literally everything. Sometimes when she started moving, her legs were twitching sometimes (that's where I suspected dks) and looked cramped, like every foot had a own pose. Yesterday after the hydration treatment with drops on her mouth, every limb (even chelicerae and spinnerets) started to stretch out and twitch, she even pooped at that exact moment (was yellow transparent with dark poop, well normal), I started to freak out, thinking it was a seizure she had. I then calmed down and noticed she was still reacting if anything was moving, so I thought, that it was something like a wakeup. But since today I think it was a seizure. How you can see on her dead body, there isn't anything supect, or maybe you notice something I did not. Btw, in that time I had her, I changed the substrate three times because of mold on the bottom of the terrarium and I since a week down there is mold again after almost a year, I really want to know what the cause of dead could be. I ask for that and I'm open for every question about my care. So please, if I maybe buy a new one, I really want to know if I did anything wrong before I buy me another one (don't want to torture a animal because of stupidity or lack of knowledge). Thank you for the help and the taken time, to read my text, appreciate it.

I forgot to add that I got her as a small sling

 

[NMTs]

Hi David. Sorry for your loss, I know it's a hard thing to deal with. It's also very hard to say with any certainty what happened. One thing that comes to mind since your T passed so soon after a molt is whether or not the sucking stomach molted correctly. If it did not, the T would have problems replacing much needed fluids after molting, which could lead to some of the symptoms you mentioned.

Aside from that, your enclosure is set up incorrectly for this species. This front opening enclosures aren't ideal for heavy-bodied terrestrial species, which is what G. pulchra are. There should be no more than 1.5 times the leg span of the T from the surface of the substrate to the top of the enclosure in order to prevent a long fall that could lead to internal injuries or a ruptured exoskeleton. It may be that your T fell prior to molting and the stress of the molt exacerbated existing internal injuries. Substrate should be deep to allow this species to burrow, as well.

Also, treating sick or injured T's in an ICU is all over the internet, but it's outdated and causes undue stress on the T - a better option is to treat it in its regular enclosure. That's not what let to the death, obviously, but just for future reference.

Sorry again for your loss.

 

[spideyspinneret78]

Could be an internal injury from either falling or molting. Unfortunately sometimes when they molt things go wrong internally. I'm sorry for your loss. Before you get another tarantula, I'd get a different type of enclosure and fill it most of the way full of substrate to prevent falls and encourage burrowing. I use what we call "critter keepers" here in the US and they work fine for tarantulas. It always sucks to lose a spider. Learn what you can from it, then give it another shot when you feel ready.

 

[Benzen]

It's all speculative. It could be many things. Fall damage, bad molt. If you decide to get another terrestrial Spider like G. Pulchra, get a better enclosure for it and put way more substrate into it, so the fall height is no more than 1.5x the size of your Spider. And don't use ICUs, they are more harmful than beneficial. If you need to rehydrate a Spider in the future, just put it above a water dish or drop some water directly into its mouth if it's too weak.

 

[Smotzer]

I highly suspect it suffered fatal injuries from fall damage in this tank, heavy bodied terrestrials and fossorials should have no more than 1.5x Diagonal leg span from substrate level to lid.

 

[David2006]

Hi David. Sorry for your loss, I know it's a hard thing to deal with. It's also very hard to say with any certainty what happened. One thing that comes to mind since your T passed so soon after a molt is whether or not the sucking stomach molted correctly. If it did not, the T would have problems replacing much needed fluids after molting, which could lead to some of the symptoms you mentioned.

Aside from that, your enclosure is set up incorrectly for this species. This front opening enclosures aren't ideal for heavy-bodied terrestrial species, which is what G. pulchra are. There should be no more than 1.5 times the leg span of the T from the surface of the substrate to the top of the enclosure in order to prevent a long fall that could lead to internal injuries or a ruptured exoskeleton. It may be that your T fell prior to molting and the stress of the molt exacerbated existing internal injuries. Substrate should be deep to allow this species to burrow, as well.

Also, treating sick or injured T's in an ICU is all over the internet, but it's outdated and causes undue stress on the T - a better option is to treat it in its regular enclosure. That's not what let to the death, obviously, but just for future reference.

Sorry again for your loss.

1. I looked at the molt and at her and it seemed all right. Or is the sucking stomach so small that I couldn't See it.
2. Abou her internal injuries and behavior. She actually never digged (except if the food was trying to get away) and she also rarely climbed that wall on the back and never fell. She was the most time on the substrate, and months before she wasn't on that wall. After her molt she was laying on the right side of her terrarium and wasn't moving since that. That's were the problems started. Are internal injuries only from a fall or can they get inner injuries just from laying on the same spot and molting?
3. About internal injuries. I have read when they have them, their poop will get white because of the blood coming from their guts. But she only seemed to poop one time white, it wasn't much. The other days her poop looked alright.
4. Thank's for the Tip with the terrarium it looks on the picture even bigger than it is. The measure of the terrarium is 30*30*30. So if I understood it right, that one isn't good for tarantulas, who live on the ground.
5. And thank's for the tip with the treating.

Could be an internal injury from either falling or molting. Unfortunately sometimes when they molt things go wrong internally. I'm sorry for your loss. Before you get another tarantula, I'd get a different type of enclosure and fill it most of the way full of substrate to prevent falls and encourage burrowing. I use what we call "critter keepers" here in the US and they work fine for tarantulas. It always sucks to lose a spider. Learn what you can from it, then give it another shot when you feel ready.

I have a few of that critter Keepers, that's were I had her in while growing up.
And about the internal injuries, well my answer got answered. Thank's

It's all speculative. It could be many things. Fall damage, bad molt. If you decide to get another terrestrial Spider like G. Pulchra, get a better enclosure for it and put way more substrate into it, so the fall height is no more than 1.5x the size of your Spider. And don't use ICUs, they are more harmful than beneficial. If you need to rehydrate a Spider in the future, just put it above a water dish or drop some water directly into its mouth if it's too weak.

When I had her in the ICU I first put water on her mouth and then put her with her mouth into the waterdish. But still thank's. About the enclosure. If I get a new one I will use the right terrarium. Thank's again

I highly suspect it suffered fatal injuries from fall damage in this tank, heavy bodied terrestrials and fossorials should have no more than 1.5x Diagonal leg span from substrate level to lid.

It could be but it didn't seemed like it, I mentioned it on the first reply to NMTs. But still thank's.

And I have a little question I forgot to add, is it normal for a tarantula that her abdomen is so soft. Only touched it after she died, carefully with a spoon to provocate a reaction. I mean sure I know that the abdomen is the most sensible part, but I never touched the abdomen before to prevent injuries. But if it's normal, I wish I knew that earlier, because I actually got scared about her enclosure (because from the possible fallheight) after I noticed it. But still thank's for the replies.

Hi David. Sorry for your loss, I know it's a hard thing to deal with. It's also very hard to say with any certainty what happened. One thing that comes to mind since your T passed so soon after a molt is whether or not the sucking stomach molted correctly. If it did not, the T would have problems replacing much needed fluids after molting, which could lead to some of the symptoms you mentioned.

Aside from that, your enclosure is set up incorrectly for this species. This front opening enclosures aren't ideal for heavy-bodied terrestrial species, which is what G. pulchra are. There should be no more than 1.5 times the leg span of the T from the surface of the substrate to the top of the enclosure in order to prevent a long fall that could lead to internal injuries or a ruptured exoskeleton. It may be that your T fell prior to molting and the stress of the molt exacerbated existing internal injuries. Substrate should be deep to allow this species to burrow, as well.

Also, treating sick or injured T's in an ICU is all over the internet, but it's outdated and causes undue stress on the T - a better option is to treat it in its regular enclosure. That's not what let to the death, obviously, but just for future reference.

Sorry again for your loss.

Btw, I just checked her molt and the sucking stomach is there. A perfect molt.

 

[The Grym Reaper]

I heard that if you are comfortable with the temperature, than youre tarantula too

Nope, it's a dumb rule because it doesn't take into account that everyone is comfortable at different temperatures. For example, I could comfortably sit in a walk-in freezer in shorts and a T-shirt for longer than it takes a tarantula to freeze to death whereas temperatures that I find uncomfortably hot don't even phase my tarantulas.

was scared, so I put her into ICU (after searching on the internet on the 25th September).

ICUs tend to do more harm than good and this possibly contributed towards the death of your tarantula.

that's where I suspected dks

There is no such thing as Dyskinetic Syndrome (aka "DKS"), it's a misnomer for Dyskinesia which is itself a symptom of an underlying problem. Read the thread below.

Dyskinesia in tarantulas

I've kinda toyed with the idea of making this thread for a while as I've gotten sick of typing the same things out every time someone has a tarantula that shows the slightest hint of jerky movements so I thought I'd try to consolidate everything into a single thread that I/others can just...

arachnoboards.com

I have read when they have them, their poop will get white because of the blood coming from their guts.

Nope, tarantula poop comes in a variety of appearances but white poop is normal.

Tarantula haemolymph is basically clear.

she also rarely climbed that wall on the back and never fell.

Unless you were watching her 24/7 then you cannot guarantee that, it's always better to set up enclosures in a way that minimises risk of harm to the occupant.

I changed the substrate three times because of mold on the bottom of the terrarium

Mould is a non-issue, certainly not worth repeatedly gutting an enclosure for. The thread below is worth reading.

All you need to know about mold

Well, I made a similar post about mites and it seemed quite popular, and since questions about mold pop up again and again I thought maybe I can shed some light on this topic, too. The thing is: with mites it was easy. They are harmless, period. With mold it’s not that easy, because there are...

arachnoboards.com

 

[Benzen]

Btw, I just checked her molt and the sucking stomach is there. A perfect molt.

Well, in that case i would also suspect a fatal fall. Tarantulas are nocturnal animals. So even if you never saw your T climb during the day, she probably climbed at night when everyone was asleep and everything was quiet....and then she fell. But don't beat yourself up for it. Live and learn. Get a new T, build a better enclosure (with A LOT of substrate if you are getting a terrestrial species) and everything will be fine.

 

[NMTs]

Btw, I just checked her molt and the sucking stomach is there. A perfect molt.

As someone mentioned before, this is all speculation and you'll likely never know exactly why your T ended up dying. It sucks that it happened, but you can take the advice you're getting here and learn how to be a better keeper moving forward.

 

[viper69]

Most deaths have no cause obvious to us.

 

[cold blood]

I highly suspect it suffered fatal injuries from fall damage in this tank, heavy bodied terrestrials and fossorials should have no more than 1.5x Diagonal leg span from substrate level to lid.

Bingo...this is clearly the most obvious reasoning. OP, you have a heavy bodied terrestrial housed in an arboreal enclosure that is totally inappropriate for such a species...all ts climb and all ts fall from time to time, having such a great distance to fall is just asking for disaster. Falls dont always result in ruptures, and when they dont, the cause is far less obvious.

t's a dumb rule because it doesn't take into account that everyone is comfortable at different temperatures

I agree when it comes to tropical species, but this is a pulcra.....its temp ranges are wider than topicals and it can deal with temps in the low 60s and even down into the 50s...so I think the "rule" (I hate to even call it that) does indeed apply in this case.

 

[David2006]

Hi, it's been quite a while, but I wanted to say thanks for the replies and tipps. I took my time to read and learn. I have since 2 and a half weeks new 3 Ts. A Gbb, Grammostola Pulchra and a pterinopelma sazimai. They are still spiderlings and are kept inside cricket boxes since I bought them. I keep them around 20-25 Celsius and feed them every three days with a mealworm. The Gbb is big enough to grab one alive, for the other two I crush the heads. I wait for the Gbb to molt, then it gets a bigger enclosure.

 

[Dementeddoll]

Yeah, when it comes to T’s you need to do research on species. Fossorial, arboreal, and terrestrial. All have different needs. As far as the mold goes it can be due to keeping the soils too wet and little to no ventilation. Also hardly any ventilation. Mold can be deadly quickly to T’s. My advice is look into the species you’re getting next time. That way you have a better setup and avoid accidents like a fall, etc. you need to let soil dry out in between watering this will prevent any mold. Also when I say watering I just mean to over fill their water bowl. Not soak it or mist. Better luck to you next time but you’re in the right place for advice. So please ask and a lot of knowledgeable peeps on here will be glad to lead you to the right direction. My suspicion was just a bad molt. It happens to any t. Even the most healthy ones.

 

[NMTs]

As far as the mold goes it can be due to keeping the soils too wet and little to no ventilation. Also hardly any ventilation. Mold can be deadly quickly to T’s.

Huh? Just to be clear, mold doesn't kill T's. Sometimes the overly stagnant conditions that promote extreme mold growth can be harmful to T's, but the mold itself is not dangerous to them. There are also plenty of times when mold can occur in well ventilated enclosures with just a little bit of moisture - it's just the natural process of organic matter being broken down.

 

[Dementeddoll]

Huh? Just to be clear, mold doesn't kill T's. Sometimes the overly stagnant conditions that promote extreme mold growth can be harmful to T's, but the mold itself is not dangerous to them. There are also plenty of times when mold can occur in well ventilated enclosures with just a little bit of moisture - it's just the natural process of organic matter being broken down.

Huh? What do you mean it doesn’t kill T’s. Not all T’s can handle that type of humidity. Mold can quickly kill T’s.

 

[cold blood]

Huh? Just to be clear, mold doesn't kill T's. Sometimes the overly stagnant conditions that promote extreme mold growth can be harmful to T's, but the mold itself is not dangerous to them. There are also plenty of times when mold can occur in well ventilated enclosures with just a little bit of moisture - it's just the natural process of organic matter being broken down.

Correct...and I will add, that the exo terras, while not the right enclosure at all for a terrestrial, does in fact provide excellent air movement, so the ventilation is absolutely not a problem...especially considering that a pulchra, which is kept dry, has very, very low ventilation requirements.

 

[NMTs]

Huh? What do you mean it doesn’t kill T’s. Not all T’s can handle that type of humidity. Mold can quickly kill T’s.

Mold and humidity are not the same thing. Additionally, I think you mean moisture because humidity is the amount of moisture in the air, and mold doesn't grow in the air - it grows in the substrate. When the moisture level in the substrate is high and airflow is low, it can increase the potential for mold growth. Those conditions may be detrimental for many T's, but it's not the mold that is dangerous - it's the conditions that promote mold growth. Mold itself is harmless.