Typhochlaena seladonia legality

[Spoodfood]

I’ve been seeing a fair bit of new or less experienced keepers posting pictures of their newly acquired T. seladonia. Not here, but on other social media platforms. I know that they are (were?) illegal under the Lacey act, but I’m not sure if they’ve changed this to not include captive bred specimens. I apologize for not being quite knowledgeable about this issue, as I only discovered it a few months back when I saw some photos of some and began searching for one. After a short search, I figured out they were illegal and abandoned that. Have things changed? Are they now legal if captive bred? I haven’t seen anything on an updated policy, so I’m assuming the laws haven’t changed. I know if you already had them they wouldn’t be confiscated, but according to a new keeper who acquired one recently, “multiple vendors have been selling them, and captive bred ones are obviously okay.” Is this true? I don’t want to sound like an idiot here. I also have been really wanting to get one, and would love for captive bred to be legal, but I’m unsure if that’s true. Let me know if you have any information on an updated policy on these guys, it would be much appreciated.

 

[viper69]

“multiple vendors have been selling them, and captive bred ones are obviously okay.”

I’m not a lawyer, but this line of “logic” is not true just because people are selling them.

Only an idiot would say that as their evidence.

 

[Spoodfood]

I’m not a lawyer, but this line of “logic” is not true just because people are selling them.

Only an idiot would say that as their evidence.

I was going to say something along those lines, especially since they referenced a seedy seller as their proof, and said seller just tried to sell banned Poecilotheria species as “hobby form” like a month ago. But they blocked me before I could respond.

 

[viper69]

I was going to say something along those lines, especially since they referenced a seedy seller as their proof, and said seller just tried to sell banned Poecilotheria species as “hobby form” like a month ago. But they blocked me before I could respond.

Yeah - hobby form- that was a bunch of crap, nothing but greed there.

 

[Spoodfood]

Yeah - hobby form- that was a bunch of crap, nothing but greed there.

That’s why I immediately figured the person was even less knowledgeable than myself on the subject if they’re quoting them as proof that captive bred seladonia are legal. Because last I heard, they’re still illegal to sell, even within state lines.

They had posted a photo of their seladonia and someone else commented something like “I want one where can I get it” and I responded to them, good luck because they’re illegal. So the poster got very upset with me, said captive bred was okay and I didn’t know what I was talking about, and blocked me before I could respond. So I came here because obviously you all would know much better.

 

[viper69]

That’s why I immediately figured the person was even less knowledgeable than myself on the subject if they’re quoting them as proof that captive bred seladonia are legal. Because last I heard, they’re still illegal to sell, even within state lines.

They had posted a photo of their seladonia and someone else commented something like “I want one where can I get it” and I responded to them, good luck because they’re illegal. So the poster got very upset with me, said captive bred was okay and I didn’t know what I was talking about, and blocked me before I could respond. So I came here because obviously you all would know much better.

You can call the Fish and Wildlife Office

Initially I bet you get different answers based on the knowledge of the people you speak with. Ultimately you’ll learn a “final” answer.

Then take that knowledge inform us, and check with your latest vendor.

If I recall, seladonia saga - all blew up because one vendor was fueled by greed and used social media, not only to advertise, but then to arbitrate their case in public.

 

[Smotzer]

The way officials and the country see it, ones that were brought it were not legal, therefor the ones that are here fall under that because anything raised from illegal stock, does not just become legal when it’s a different individual after birth.

this damn hobby harms themselves by being greedy selfish species grabbers when they can’t just respect an illegal status and bring the hobby in the right direction and show those that govern these laws that this hobby isn’t just brown boxers and exotic animal smugglers trying to get around laws. Most times that exactly what this hobby is with bs like what you have brought up and “hobby form”. It’s the part of his hobby that I hate that by being in it, I support it whether I want to or not, we all do.

 

[Spoodfood]

The way officials and the country see it, ones that were brought it were not legal, therefor the ones that are here fall under that because anything raised from illegal stock, does not just become legal when it’s a different individual after birth.

this damn hobby harms themselves by being greedy selfish species grabbers when they can’t just respect an illegal status and bring the hobby in the right direction and show those that govern these laws that this hobby isn’t just brown boxers and exotic animal smugglers trying to get around laws. Most times that exactly what this hobby is with bs like what you have brought up and “hobby form”. It’s the part of his hobby that I hate that by being in it, I support it whether I want to or not, we all do.

It’s just playing with fire, trying to decide something is okay because you want it to be. That’s not how anything else in life works, so why would that be how the hobby works?

 

[8 legged]

In my country they are legal. This is the only Info I know about the Staates (old, but maybe interesting):

 

[Marlana]

I am one of the selfish keepers who decided to keep one. Why? Because the logic of the Laceys act only applied to Seladonia but literally no other Brazilian species…makes zero sense to me. G.pulchra would also be ‘illegal’. And Y.diversipes. A. geniculata. Literally a huge list of species. Why would this only be applied to seladonia when Brazil has made it clear they’ve not allowed ANY legal exports? But hobbyist are only concerned with seladonia legality. So I call bull. I think it’s hobbyists making up rumors. When FWS says they are completely illegal to own even though they themselves allowed multiple imports before stopping one…then I’ll re-evaluate. Until then I think it’s all here-say and guesses.

 

[8 legged]

I am one of the selfish keepers who decided to keep one. Why? Because the logic of the Laceys act only applied to Seladonia but literally no other Brazilian species…makes zero sense to me. G.pulchra would also be ‘illegal’. And Y.diversipes. A. geniculata. Literally a huge list of species. Why would this only be applied to seladonia when Brazil has made it clear they’ve not allowed ANY legal exports? But hobbyist are only concerned with seladonia legality. So I call bull. I think it’s hobbyists making up rumors. When FWS says they are completely illegal to own even though they themselves allowed multiple imports before stopping one…then I’ll re-evaluate. Until then I think it’s all here-say and guesses.

A person, an own opinion - represented by reason!
I like this!

 

[Marlana]

A person, an own opinion - represented by reason!
I like this!

Thank you. I spent over a year wrestling with the morality of owning this species, before I got one. I didn’t want to compromise my own ethics for a species I loved. So I did as much research as I could and that’s the conclusion I came to. It doesn’t make sense. Either all Brazilian species are illegal or none are. It doesn’t make sense that only one is illegal.

 

[8 legged]

Thank you. I spent over a year wrestling with the morality of owning this species, before I got one. I didn’t want to compromise my own ethics for a species I loved. So I did as much research as I could and that’s the conclusion I came to. It doesn’t make sense. Either all Brazilian species are illegal or none are. It doesn’t make sense that only one is illegal.

My personal opinion on this subject: the hobby will ensure the survival of this species. Brazil is not able to get the problems in its own country under control, the habitat of T. seladonia is doomed. Without the hobby, the chances of survival are very slim. The exclamation "this is illegal" is a farce and if it weren't for that sad, it would be rather ridiculous!
Then the keepers are not to be held responsible, because our policy - worldwide - is not in a position to develop a really simple system to prevent unwanted removals from the nature, it would be so easy. The land is compensated for an official removal, then there is controlled breeding for a while, then the animals that have been bred are sold legally. Seriously, what's the problem? If you had competent guides, something like this would not have been an issue since the 80s.
You take care of your animal, what you do is absolutely ethical. If one point the finger at you, he only limit himself!

 

[Smotzer]

Thank you. I spent over a year wrestling with the morality of owning this species, before I got one. I didn’t want to compromise my own ethics for a species I loved. So I did as much research as I could and that’s the conclusion I came to. It doesn’t make sense. Either all Brazilian species are illegal or none are. It doesn’t make sense that only one is illegal.

Quite simply Laws and claims by a government don’t have to make sense to a citizen. Laws are not all blankets either. It’s not hidden that Brazil claims that the exportation was not legal. That’s called animal smuggling. I don’t care this hobby is notorious for smuggling and brown boxing, this should
Not be treated as a T. seladonia problem, unfortunately this is systemic issue, we all support it, by not protecting species in habitats, no simply we want the new shinny colorful things to keep as pets, Brazil and any country for that matter and or any animal protection agencies have every right to protect their flora and fauna when and where they see fit, the US does it all the time. It’s not morals. No attack upon you only for discussions sake.

 

[Marlana]

Quite simply Laws and claims by a government don’t have to make sense to a citizen. Laws are not all blankets either. It’s not hidden that Brazil claims that the exportation was not legal. That’s called animal smuggling. I don’t care this hobby is notorious for smuggling and brown boxing, this should
Not be treated as a T. seladonia problem, unfortunately this is systemic issue, we all support it, by not protecting species in habitats, no simply we want the new shinny colorful things to keep as pets, Brazil and any country for that matter and or any animal protection agencies have every right to protect their flora and fauna when and where they see fit, the US does it all the time. It’s not morals. No attack upon you only for discussions sake.

But they claim they made no legal exports. So shouldn’t we be as concerned with people owning G.pulchra? And if it was in fact FWS that made a statement about legality, that’d be a completely different thing. Facts are they haven’t said anything officially. They just won’t let people import them. They’ve never said people couldn’t breed and own the ones already here…like with all Brazilian species. That’s literally hobbyists making their own interpretation of the law. FWS hasn’t said anything except you cannot import them.

 

[Reezelbeezelbug]

Just because it's not enforced at any kind of scale doesn't mean it's not illegal. Driving 5 mph over the speed limit is illegal. Will you get a ticket? Not usually.

The Lacey Act is a USA thing. Europe doesn't have the same kind of rule, so Europeans can smuggle/poach/collect all the Ts they want, breed them up, and then export them all over. To the European, this isn't illegal. Under the Lacey Act the original smuggling of the animal was illegal. Then any animal produced from illegal stock is illegal, again under the Lacey Act, even if it's legal for the European who owns and breeds them at the time.

So are ALL the Brazilian species and their progeny illegal in the USA? Yep. Is an enforcement agent going to knock on your door and demand you hand over your illegal tarantulas? Not usually.

 

[Smotzer]

They’ve never said people couldn’t breed and own the ones already here…like with all Brazilian species. That’s literally hobbyists making their own interpretation of the law. FWS hasn’t said anything except you cannot import them.

The ones that got here to the US were poached and smuggled out of the country illegally……just because it gives birth here or was bred here in the US doesn’t mean it’s legal, if it was taken illegally in the first place. That’s just fencing stolen goods through animal lives and breeding, just cause you cleaned the money doesn’t mean your not still dirty.

 

[viper69]

So shouldn’t we be as concerned with people owning G.pulchra?

Yes if what I'm reading about Brazil in this thread is true, ie all Ts are illegal to export.

 

[sasker]

In the Netherlands, the law against fencing stolen good makes it illegal to buy stolen goods, unless it comes from a official shop. For example, buying a bicycle from a junky for 20 euro is illegal, because the buyer could expect it was stolen. Buying a stolen bicycle from a bicycle dealer is not illegal, because you should expect from a shop that everything is in order. You don't even have to return the bicycle if it turns out to be stolen if you get it from a shop.

Applying this principle, hobbyists should not be bothered with the legality/illegality of the animals they buy. If authorities want to crack down on illegal animal trade, they should go after the sellers. To me, that would make more sense.

 

[DaveM]

In the Netherlands, the law against fencing stolen good makes it illegal to buy stolen goods, unless it comes from a official shop.
...
Applying this principle, hobbyists should not be bothered with the legality/illegality of the animals they buy. If authorities want to crack down on illegal animal trade, they should go after the sellers. To me, that would make more sense.

That's a great point, @sasker. Dutch lawmakers seem to be much more fun-loving in all sorts of ways, and in law enforcement too. I once saw a drunk man try to assault a female police officer in Amsterdam. She just tripped him, threw him into a canal, and laughed at him as he floundered around all wet. No arrests were made. #LikeABoss
Going after smugglers and fencers, fine. Private breeders and hobbyists should not be bothered.
The Lacey Act seems designed to compensate for shortcomings in enforcement earlier in the smuggling pipeline.
I think we should have a clause that grandfathers in species bred on our home soil.
Brazil wouldn't be happy if Ethiopia says they can't grow coffee anymore.