Tarantula Immune to Own Venom?

[BenjaminBoa]

For those of you who mate your T's and things turn from orgy to gory what happens if both T's envenomate each other?
If they envenomate prey I would assume they would be immune to their own venom, because they ingest the very food which contains that venom, and if a female eats a male she eats the venom gland too. Or does the digestive enzymes neutralize or completely break down the venom?

 

[grayzone]

both ts would likely die... they are immune to their OWN venom, but not venom from a t of their own genus/sp.

 

[BenjaminBoa]

So each individual tarantula has its own unique cocktail of venom? I thought venom was the same between genus/species of animal groups, hence toxicology reports, antivenoms etc etc.

 

[grayzone]

then again, they may NOT... ive heard of ts fighting before and if the venom is injected the other will be paralyzed for a while... may not necessarily die if the offending t decides to leave the bitten t alone? i know this happens at times when a t bites a mouse or large prey. Maybe somebody with more words than me can elaborate my hypothesis

 

[BenjaminBoa]

I could not find anything on a google search over spiders, but snakes apparently are not immune to their own venom, apparently sometimes vipers and cobras self envenomate which leads to abscesses in the mouth or bite wound. I find that very bizarr... considering, at least with snakes, their venom is modified saliva and aids in digestion (unlike tarantulas)

 

[Tarac]

I would assume they would be immune to their own venom, because they ingest the very food which contains that venom, and if a female eats a male she eats the venom gland too. Or does the digestive enzymes neutralize or completely break down the venom?

Exactly, ingesting venom is very different from being envenomated. Lots of things we eat would be very harmful if they were diffused into our circulatory system without some filtering and/or modification by our digestive system. Venom is essentially protein- little peptides in this case, but nonetheless a small string of amino acids.

 

[jbm150]

I would think that if you extracted the venom of a tarantula and injected it back into the same T, it would show the effects of the venom (and likely die)

 

[Malhavoc's]

Most matings gone bad, Tarantulas die from phsyical wounds, not signs of envenomation. Which would mean they are all dry bites of in my experiances, show a good bit of resistants to their spouses backlash

 

[xhexdx]

Most matings gone bad, Tarantulas die from phsyical wounds, not signs of envenomation. Which would mean they are all dry bites of in my experiances, show a good bit of resistants to their spouses backlash

Could you explain the signs of envenomation and how they differ from death by physical damage? Have you ever seen animal die as a result from a tarantula bite but not from being physically mutilated by the tarantula's fangs in the process?

 

[Malhavoc's]

Actually I have! I should of posted such;

In a few cases, in matings gone bad, injuries happen, The most common being loss of limbs, Unfortunatly do to The self removal of the limbs, this proves useless for this discusion.

I have had a few cases where the cephlathorax or abdomen has been punctured; This is often Fatal, depending upon placement and depth; or the tarantula will suffer from bleed out if not treated quickly, I've had two cases where I've had a male spider punctured

The first is the one I have records of, It was bit and held for Est: 2-3 seconds before I could intervene through the Cephlathorax; Which, in my opinion would be long enough for envenomation. The subject was treated quickly with baking powder for an initial stopper; then later Super glue was used to fashion are more sturdy "fix" to the damage done; The wound was located approx 1/4 inch from the edge of the cephlathroax, between the Back to legs of the rear side; The aforementioned legs were lost due to damage of the other fang presumably. His behavior Was somewhat sluggish at first; Displaying all the signs of a damaged/dehydrated spider; However within a few hours Made to my astonishment a rather "encouraging" recovery, 3.5 hours from incident I was able to witness the male drinking water heavily, quickly accepting it when offered. The next day the tarantula Took a cricket (it was then I noticed the baking powder was a poor fix and chilled the subject and applied the super glue fix; A week later he was set to be paired with another of my females; though I had slim hope with the loss of limbs; He managed to successfully surprise me despite this injury. and lived onward for another two females before He was rejected and consumed to my dismay.

I've also had a few what I like to think as "near misses" with abdomen punctures, where the tarantula bleeds immensely and is quick to death curl; but with quick application of ICU; A stopping/coagulant agent, so long as the Heart is not punctured; are able to make a 'decent' recovery. I've had one female injured by the male in such a way whom later molted out to a nice recovery.



Now as far as Animals succumbing to venom and not clear Damage from the fangs, This one I would have to refer to the short time that I have used Live mice and geckos as live feeders. I have seen "near miss" bits on these animals from defensive strikes of my tarantulas; and later die from "unknown causes" I say unknown due to the fact that While the wound was in a non fatal area such as a limb, tail, Etc where one could theorize the animal could recover; they would die in an odd fashion of behavior. Stumbling, Tripping; discolouration; almost a sense of being lost with some. However; as I am NOT a vet. I can not say if this was clearly the act of venom, Stress. or Perhaps unseen wounds I was not aware of.

I hope this helps.

Side note: Case 1 of cephlathorax damage: Species was P. Murunis, adult male, and adult female. it was my second attempt with that male and same female Temps were room (75f range.) Spartan cage for both for ease of breeding purposes, water dish offered, no spraying. ICU however was high humidity, high 70's low 80s range, with water dish offered, as well as a drip stick straw used to directly offer water to the male; My limited knowledge leads me to be the primary damage done was to the muscle system that controlled the lost legs; being offside and away from the sucking stomache/nerve cluster.

Case two of the abdominal rupture was a G Rosea. whom I believe to have been a sub adult female, due to the rejection.

Animal notes: subject feeders were common mice, in the "juvie/fuzzy" stage, Offered to An H. Lividum, and P. Regalis; Discolouration was seen with P.Regalis with the mouse feeders, The bite was on the back "hips" When the fur was parted to inspect the wound the skin underneath was a Odd green/black tingue, Perhaps bruising? Perhaps effects of venom? Of this I am not sure, but the wound did not appear fatal when I retrieved the feeder when it was refused by the Regalis; The feeder was placed back into storage after some mild curiosity of observation and found dead within an hours time. ( I had gone back to cage maitanance.)


PS! For all invert keepers, keeping records=awesome reference.

 

[xhexdx]

Interesting observations, and I agree, keeping records is great for situations like this.

Your examples of the vertebrate feeders sounds like envenomation to me. Your P. murinus male/female example sounds like a dry bite. Of course, we have no real way to know whether or not venom was injected in any of your examples.

The other thing worth noting (to me) is that there aren't any examples of a tarantula being envenomated vs not being envenomated, so although you provide some very detailed reports, I'm not sure how well they relate to each other.

Interesting nonetheless.

 

[BenjaminBoa]

When I feed my H. lividum anoles, when they are available, I often notice immediate color change in the anole. I'll describe one such case, my H lividum usually takes anoles from the tail since they tend to hang from the top of the cage.

The HL bit the anole right where the tail meets the body, The anole fell and darted to get away from the tarantula. In around a minute the anole's movements became clumsy and it's color went from green to dark brown, only moments later it stopped moving completely but was still breathing. The bite wound oozed a milky substance, in bite reports people have described venom as a clear liquid so I assumed a fang may have punctured part of the digestive track just before the vent and this was poo, it was the same color of the urates I find in my snake tanks but no black organic matter in it. The area around the bite wound turned black after another minute or so and to my surprise the green color was returning in small blotches over the body, the green faded after a few minutes to a dull green and the breathing stopped. About ten minutes later the H. lividum emerged from her burrow and dragged the anole down to have dinner.

Unlike most of them, this specific meal was a fully grown male anole, baby anoles die within seconds, they hardly ever twitch after the bite. So From this experience I think Old World bites on prey items would display symptoms of envenomation pretty quickly after a bite. My GBB often bites once, backs off then bites several more times and begins masticating the body as soon as the struggling stops, but I havn't seen any 'obvious' signs of envenomation.

Still its interesting you say that an OBT bite was survived, from what I've read in bite reports they seem just as potent, if not worse than H.lividum, considering the size of the animal (If evenomation even occurred.)

I've heard of some animals that prey on snakes or scorpions being immune or very tolerant of their prey's venom. I'm not totally sure, but I think I've been told that some kingsnakes are tolerant of rattle snake venom. It is interesting that the creator of the venom might or might not be immune to their own weapon while some animals who do not even produce that substance can gain a tolerance or even immunity to it. If I had to make a guess, I'd guess T's at the least are tolerant of the venom of their own species.

 

[Tarac]

I often notice immediate color change in the anole.

Normal response for a stressed anole, bitten or not and weather Anolis carolinensis or otherwise. They all get darker, even if you just pick the up. Many lizards do this in fact.

may have punctured part of the digestive track just before the vent and this was poo, it was the same color of the urates I find in my snake tanks but no black organic matter in it. The area around the bite wound turned black after another minute or so and to my surprise the green color was returning in small blotches over the body, the green faded after a few minutes to a dull green and the breathing stopped..

Sounds like death from major trauma, including loss of bowel control. Stomach injury would definitely do that.

I'm not totally sure, but I think I've been told that some kingsnakes are tolerant of rattle snake venom. It is interesting that the creator of the venom might or might not be immune to their own weapon while some animals who do not even produce that substance can gain a tolerance or even immunity to it. If I had to make a guess, I'd guess T's at the least are tolerant of the venom of their own species.

I really doubt they are even tolerant of their own species' venom, there isn't really the pressure to develop a tolerance since most interspecific deaths are likely mechanically fatal anyway. It's not a common quality in venomous animals, they rarely are in that kind of contact with their own venom by design. Animals that do develop tolerances- which yes, some snakes that hunt venomous prey and even certain species of rodent like the ground squirrel and other common prey items, do evolve immunity to their main predator's venom- do so because it is an advantage. A male tarantula being immune still doesn't save him from her fangs most of the time, if she's so inclined. So even if they are immune, they still die= no genes to pass on. The ground squirrel on the other hand will not die from the fine punctures of a rattlesnake bite in most cases so being able to take the venom in stride will prove hugely advantageous. Their predator relies on the venom to immobilize it's prey so with that part of the predator-prey interaction cut off the ground squirrel will be able to run off somewhere and have tons of venom-immune babies. Keep in mind this occurs in places where there is a very close predator-prey relationship such as in arid regions where prey and predator are both relatively scarce so options are limited. It usualy means the prey is one of the exclusive foods of the predator and vice versa. Tarantulas obviously are not sustaining themselves primarily on members of their own species, nor do very many other animals hence no need for immunity to conspecific's venom in general.

Meanwhile your female tarantula back there is just eyeing up the male for dinner, she doesn't intend to need venom to dispatch of him. A small puncture in his carapace or abdomen would be fatal no matter dry bite or not, at least most of the time and assuming no human intervention.

 

[Malhavoc's]

Interesting observations, and I agree, keeping records is great for situations like this.

Your examples of the vertebrate feeders sounds like envenomation to me. Your P. murinus male/female example sounds like a dry bite. Of course, we have no real way to know whether or not venom was injected in any of your examples.

The other thing worth noting (to me) is that there aren't any examples of a tarantula being envenomated vs not being envenomated, so although you provide some very detailed reports, I'm not sure how well they relate to each other.

Interesting nonetheless.

Dry bite is one possibility, another could of been that since the wound was bleeding at a rather good rate, mixed with the baking powder I used as an intial coagulant absorbed any traces or most traces of venom from the bite site; You are very correct in that we`d have to do an actual envenomation study for more acurate results.

 

[twentyeggs]

well, i really don't think spiders are immune to their own venom... just take a step back real quick and think. what is the mechanism of venom and how does it kill? there are many different types, some that attack platelet formation and cause the victim to bleed out internally and externally, there is venom that causes neuromuscular failure and cardiac arrest, venom that causes nervous system failure, ect... so basically venom is venom there is no magic involved where because its from the host it will not fulfill its mechanism if it finds its way back into it.

i believe tarantulas like most spiders have neurotoxic venom as apposed to anti clotting type properties as most snakes have. and neurotoxic venom is mainly used to paralyze or incapacitate in mild potencies, as apposed to shutting down vital organs and biological processes which is found to be so in more potent venoms. So will a bite from itself or a identical species kill it? it really depends on the amount and mechanical damage of the bite. does the bite do less damage because its the same venom that the tarantula itself makes? no, venom does not pick and chose what biological mass it destroys.

the only reverse to this is if the host has an acquired or adaptive immunity to specific properties of a specific venom. like the mongoose! a mongoose developes what is called aquired or adaptive immunity. this means its not born with the required antibodies, but after it is bitten T cells are able to quickly identify and produce a countermeasure which is then encoded and stored as B cells for future attacks. Humans are born with specific congenital immunities to things such as common bacterias, molds, ect.. most of which come from the mothers immunity or colostrum when nursing. adaptive immunity is like vericella (chicken pox), once you get it, your body stores the antibodies to fight it off.

there is no evidence that spiders have specific antibodies to venom. and very few animals are able to survive and build an immunity to venom. in the case of a mongoose, they are incredibly more complex than an arachnid. the immune system that functions in a mammal is thousands of times more efficient and versatile than an invertebrate.

short answer no, a spider is not immune to its own venom.

as a side note there are many cases and common practice for people to slowing inject snake venom into their bodies in small metered doses in the effort to train their bodies to build an addaptive immunity to a snake bite. this practice has saved the lives of many snake handlers. but even if someone has developed an immunity to venom, the immune system is not instant, and a very large heavily dosed bite can kill a person before their immunity can inactivate the venom.

i've also seen people do this exposure therapy to common allergens in an effort to reduce or stop the symptoms of an allergy. still this is dangerous, because you body can go the opposite way and form a hypersensitivity resulting in anaphylaxis with an even smaller dose than before. its common for someone to get stung by a bee and have no reaction, but then get stung a few years later and go into shock and sometimes die..

hope this helps

 

[Tarac]

i believe tarantulas like most spiders have neurotoxic venom as apposed to anti clotting type properties as most snakes have

No, most snake venom is neurotoxic as well. Some snakes are almost strictly neurotoxic (some Colubirds, Elaphids) but the most common type of venomous snakes globally (Vipers) are both. The few identified anticoagulants in most snake venom are kind of "dispersal mechanisms, " preventing the body from attacking the the enzymatic components efficiently, as enzymes are relatively sensitive and easy to inactivate without some type of promoter/protector present. The anti-coagulant proteins in venom are generally not considered responsible for death by clinicians in most cases, it's the failure of major organs that does the job which is the result of a cascade of enzyme activities affecting both nervous and circulatory systems. Pro-coagulants, found in some snake's venom but fairly uncommon, are definitely bad news as they can cause cardiac failure, stroke, etc.- it's a huge problem in Southern Asia where Taipan are common in agricultural settings.

Anyway, it's not correct to consider snake venom as anti-coagulant as it is simply a mixture of various proteins, primarily all enzymes, that work in tandem to immobilize prey/threats. Not very many snakes use only one or the other mechanism, snake venom is usually a cocktail. Check out this link:

http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u16/u1606_01.htm

 

[BenjaminBoa]

Normal response for a stressed anole, bitten or not and weather Anolis carolinensis or otherwise. They all get darker, even if you just pick the up. Many lizards do this in fact.



Sounds like death from major trauma, including loss of bowel control. Stomach injury would definitely do that.



I really doubt they are even tolerant of their own species' venom, there isn't really the pressure to develop a tolerance since most interspecific deaths are likely mechanically fatal anyway. It's not a common quality in venomous animals, they rarely are in that kind of contact with their own venom by design. Animals that do develop tolerances- which yes, some snakes that hunt venomous prey and even certain species of rodent like the ground squirrel and other common prey items, do evolve immunity to their main predator's venom- do so because it is an advantage. A male tarantula being immune still doesn't save him from her fangs most of the time, if she's so inclined. So even if they are immune, they still die= no genes to pass on. The ground squirrel on the other hand will not die from the fine punctures of a rattlesnake bite in most cases so being able to take the venom in stride will prove hugely advantageous. Their predator relies on the venom to immobilize it's prey so with that part of the predator-prey interaction cut off the ground squirrel will be able to run off somewhere and have tons of venom-immune babies. Keep in mind this occurs in places where there is a very close predator-prey relationship such as in arid regions where prey and predator are both relatively scarce so options are limited. It usualy means the prey is one of the exclusive foods of the predator and vice versa. Tarantulas obviously are not sustaining themselves primarily on members of their own species, nor do very many other animals hence no need for immunity to conspecific's venom in general.

Meanwhile your female tarantula back there is just eyeing up the male for dinner, she doesn't intend to need venom to dispatch of him. A small puncture in his carapace or abdomen would be fatal no matter dry bite or not, at least most of the time and assuming no human intervention.

My friend's girlfriend breeds anoles, I see them all the time. The initial color change was from stress, but the near black pigmentation that spread from near the bite wound was not a normal anole color, I saw no blood only white fluid until the haplo started masticating. Also the loss of limb control starting at the bite site and eventually spreading to the rest of the limbs before finally killing the anole leads me to stick by the fact that my haplo had envenomated the anole. Also If I can make a hypothesis, I would say the sudden change back to blue green just before breathing stopped might be from the shock/euphoria from envenomation. Some people describe extreme arousal/dream like euphoria briefly after an extreme trauma, but I also know anoles don't control their own color when they sleep, so it may have just reverted back to its "base" colors.

 

[Tarac]

My friend's girlfriend breeds anoles, I see them all the time. The initial color change was from stress, but the near black pigmentation that spread from near the bite wound was not a normal anole color, I saw no blood only white fluid until the haplo started masticating. Also the loss of limb control starting at the bite site and eventually spreading to the rest of the limbs before finally killing the anole leads me to stick by the fact that my haplo had envenomated the anole. Also If I can make a hypothesis, I would say the sudden change back to blue green just before breathing stopped might be from the shock/euphoria from envenomation. Some people describe extreme arousal/dream like euphoria briefly after an extreme trauma, but I also know anoles don't control their own color when they sleep, so it may have just reverted back to its "base" colors.

I live in Florida where those are native plus a whole host of other exotic species and grew up making "earrings" out of them by letting them bite my earlobe, so we are both quite familiar- in my childhood though only Anolis carolinensis was prevalent here, it's no longer the dominant species unfortunately although after many years they still persist in tandem so it appears they will be OK despite all the invaders. The Carolina Anole was my first pet in fact, besides the family cat. The anole was actually mine (because my mom thought I would get over it and forget about snakes and spiders... lol, joke's on her!). So we'll just assume that my ample and long-term experience with a ubiquitous animal native to my region is at least equivalent to your friend's friend having them.

First, you don't understand how the "color change" works. When the animal dies it can no longer control the cells (called chromatophores) that dilate and contract to expose more or less of the brown/green pigment so it will revert back to the "relaxed" state unless eventually, whether physiologically or simply due to degradation. Look at that same anole later on and it will be black/gray instead- the pigments will be denatured by then. Their upper dermal layers are actually transparent, it's the sacs of pigment in the chromatophores below that you are actually seeing, more or less depending on whether they are contracted or flattened out into a disc shape. It has nothing to do at all with being euphoric from venom. Second, a hypothesis is something you believe to be true because the evidence points to it as a strong possibility. You don't have evidence, you have observations. You next have to decide what the observations mean in context. You can't say "it turned back green thus it must be feeling euphoric," you have to ask "how does an Anolis turn green or brown?" You also can't say it has anything to do with feeling euphoric because there has never been a shred of literature, or even posts in the bite reports, that says anything about feeling euphoria after being bitten by a tarantula. At best you get "ouch" at worst you go to the hospital. Nobody calls it "euphoric." So that's not really a good start for a hypothesis, or the proper use for that word for that matter.

On top of all of that, keeping in mind our shared familiarity with Anolis carolinensis, I have another bit of insight. I am a medical professional and have seen really terrible things with follow up confirming what actually happened. If you have ever seen any kind of severe trauma, human or other animal from crickets to fish to horses, it all looks like what you are trying to describe as proof of envenomation. Many things experience spasms, convulsions, etc. from any major trauma regardless of where. There are people who will literally have seizures from having a major trauma to the hand. So that is not at all evidence. Moreover the pathway in which you describe the symptoms occurring is not what an organism experiencing neurotoxicity looks like. Neurological symptoms that are obvious to the eye do not begin immediately first of all, second they do not start at the bite site and work their way up. Certain parts of the body will show signs much earlier than others. So that is actually counter-evidence to your hypothesis. I would now say it is highly unlikely that what you saw was anything other than a death from severe trauma.

Think- if someone penetrated your thigh with a sharp, massive object and then tore it back out (not to mention knowing it happened because they intend to finish the job and will pursue) but there was no such thing as medical intervention you would look just like that anole. Spasms, loss of bowel function, loss of motor control and eventually a period of "calming" which is loss of consciousness followed shortly after by death. It's not euphoric, you just aren't understanding the sequence of events you saw.

I'm not picking at you either, simply trying to explain what you observed and how you would go about making a conclusion about what most likely happened. Of course I cannot say 100% either since I didn't even see the thing happen, but from the description I can say that whether or not the anole was envenomated by that bite it's death was the result of trauma given the symptoms characterized as you describe.

A last note, if the anole doesn't control its own color when it sleeps, who does? Where did you hear that?

Those cells are obligatorily always controlled by the animal to which they belong lol. Whether or not they are consciously controlled is another story, but then you would have to prove that the stress reaction was not involuntary in order to say they are consciously trying to change their color rather than just involuntary response, like blushing in humans. If you want to formulate a hypothesis about this you must first research all the background of the subject to see what is the normal condition, what we already can explain, and then decide what stands out as being different. You might then be able to ask "is this unusual effect I am seeing a result of envenomation?" None of what you describe is different from major trauma of any kind and there are even symptoms you describe that don't add up, contraindications. So you would not hypothesize the death was due to venom toxicity, you would hypothesize the animal died of major trauma due to a severe puncture/laceration to the hind limb. See?

 

[BenjaminBoa]

Tarac,
While I appreciate your post and your insight you are taking my post too literally. When I said "controlled" I was simply referring to the fact that their color does not reflect their stress level/ other factors when they sleep, they, in my experience always fade to a certain color and remain that way until they wake.

I also doubt a single puncture wound to the base of the tail would cause such instant effects, considering my other tarantulas who have been fed anoles on occasion never produce symptoms even similar to those I've seen with my haplo, aside from color change. Even after multiple bites, unless the spider grabs the head the anoles generally have control over their limbs and will flee from the T or struggle. What I observed was the limbs going from working (mostly) to walking becoming awkward, to complete limb failure. I have never seen this with any of my other T's, which are all mild venomed new worlds.

My haplo displays this strike, back off and return later on, when ever she's given ANY large prey items, including large roaches and locust. There is a big difference between her trying to attack a threat and trying to take down big prey. When she is stressed, which believe me, she shows me this EVERY time I go in the enclosure near her burrow, she comes out and lunges at me, she will then remain there in strike position for an hour or more until the perceived threat is gone, and she will not hesitate to bite. When she takes down large prey she does the same thing every time, you see the tips of her feet at the burrow entrance, she darts forward just after the prey passes her burrow, she gives ONE tag and then zips back down to the bottom of her burrow, a few minutes later she returns to the surface, calmly walks over to the dead/dying prey item and scoops it up with her fangs and palps and then calmly takes it down to her burrow or just eats it right there if it's dark enough.

If she were only biting the anole from being stressed she'd have remained there, and bit over and over again, which she didn't. She also came out and picked it up with no cautious stop- and- go behavior, she somehow instinctually knew the prey item was dead or not able to fight anymore.

She does not do this for anything smaller than a medium sized roach, things of that size or smaller she simply grabs and chews at it right away. I've read that this is normal behavior for T's, to envenomate large prey and then sit back and wait. And considering she does not do this behavior for small prey or threats to her burrow I think it is safe to assume envenomation is what occurred there. Strike- back off- and come back later hunting methods would make no sense if she gave the anole a dry bite. This also does not account for the fact that paralysis happens instantly/ within a minute with nearly every anole she's eaten since I got her (which is maybe one a month). As I stated before, my GBB was brutal to the anoles which were not even adult size but this loss of motor function was not so extreme, if it occurred at all before death.

Now as for the loss of consciousness before death, you have me there that is probably what happened, as I said in my post I was just throwing out guesses. I didn't know or care about what happened enough to do any research on the topic of anole deaths and all that fun stuff, I saw what I saw, and I drew some conclusions, whether or not the anole was envenomated or just eaten... I don't care the point is, it is in my T's stomach now. I was only bringing it up as potential evidence of envenomation, and I ams still not convinced she isn't envenomating her prey, while my reasons don't point 100% toward yes, I see no reasons that point 100% toward no, in fact after observing her, and watching all of what I've listed above I feel it is safe to say that it is much more likely she envenomated the anole than not.