T keeping in Spain will be forbidden by law

[jVendetta]

Hello everyone, long-time lurker, Spanish keeper.

I thought it might be of interest, at least to stay informed about the regulations on keeping T's in other countries, to share information about the new law that will be enacted in Spain next week, on Friday the 29th. It's called the "Ley de Bienestar Animal" (Animal Welfare Law), and among other things, it prohibits the keeping of arthropods whose bites or venom could pose a serious danger to the well-being of humans or other animals, basically not considering them pets. As you can see, this is somewhat vague because a bite from a venomous tarantula could be life-threatening to a hamster, while it may not be considered significant for a healthy adult.

The law also determines that a positive animal list, which will specify which arthropods can be kept, will be created within a maximum of 24 months. It's quite likely that we will have to wait for two years for this list to be established, and T's won't probably be included.

Before said list is done, within the first 6 months after the law is enacted, we must notify the authorities if we had any pets that the law prohibits beforehand. In such case (sic), "the competent authorities will take the necessary measures for their intervention and placement in wildlife protection centers, zoos or animal protection organizations." Supposedly, as said in the media, only dangerous pets (the ones that they consider dangerous) will be intervened. The fines for keeping, selling, or transporting any animal not considered a pet by this law are quite hefty.

I tried to be as concise as possible, but as you can see, it looks rather grim for the hobby and hobbyists. I understand that most of you are from the US and may not be interested in Spanish legislation but this could potentially have implications for the entire EU as positive listings are being written in other countries. We are supposed to hand out our pets (or at least be in the risk of it) or be criminals. Sorry for the rambling and possible misspellings or miswordings.

 

[jbooth]

It's global, the cult hasn't gotten quite as far in the US, but they are certainly trying. None of their laws make any sense at all, it's simply about more and more control. Hopefully soon enough people will wake up and say NO to all forms of government, permanently.

 

[Wolfram1]

I tried to be as concise as possible, but as you can see, it looks rather grim for the hobby and hobbyists. I understand that most of you are from the US and may not be interested in Spanish legislation but this could potentially have implications for the entire EU as positive listings are being written in other countries. We are supposed to hand out our pets (or at least be in the risk of it) or be criminals. Sorry for the rambling and possible misspellings or miswordings.

Have you considered voting for a different party next time? Democracy certainly is a flawed tool, often working too slow to be of any use, but its a start.

Some regulations are a must, but when they are exploited by a select few or nonsensical they should be opposed and changed to reflect the circumstances.


What is the legal way to prevent such laws from beeing passed in spain? Usually some of our representatives can call for a referendum and if enough signitures are collected lawmakers have to at least consider reworking the law.

Also there may be some organisations influencing lawmakers in an advisory capacity, these can be contacted and petitioned to reccomend slight changes in the policies.


If they have already been drafted, voted on and passed those options may however be already gone.
Sad to hear about this regardless, i do hope we will be able to avoid such a scenario in austria even as many european countries seem to move towards white lists, ....

 

[Dorifto]

Buenas @jVendetta Right now the law it's paralized, even if it should be officially active from the next 29th.

It's a complete senseless law, that literally bans every specie fron the start, even fishes. The law can't be applied without a possitive and negative list of banned animals, and right now, only dog, cats and few more are in the positive list, while in the negative one there is officially nothing.

Probably the law will be discarted, even the animalist, vets etc are against it...

Supposedly only animals that because of their venom potency, aggressivity.. etc or that because they can pose a real environmental risk will be "banned" and here enters the subjetivity of the individual applying that law, which T has a significantly harmful/dangerous bite? or not? For me a bee is way more dangerous than my Ts, will they ban bees?

They should legislate rather than banning, it will be much more beneficial. You have an exotic animal? Well follow this rules, easy. Banning only will incentivate smuggling and furtivity...

 

[Wolfram1]

Buenas @jVendetta Right now the law it's paralized, even if it should be officially active from the next 29th.

It's a complete senseless law, that literally bans every specie fron the start, even fishes. The law can't be applied without a possitive and negative list of banned animals, and right now, only dog, cats and few more are in the positive list, while in the negative one there is officially nothing.

Probably the law will be discarted, even the animalist, vets etc are against it...

Supposedly only animals that because of their venom potency, aggressivity.. etc or that because they can pose a real environmental risk will be "banned" and here enters the subjetivity of the individual applying that law, which T has a significantly harmful/dangerous bite? or not? For me a bee is way more dangerous than my Ts, will they ban bees?

They should legislate rather than banning, it will be much more beneficial. You have an exotic animal? Well follow this rules, easy. Banning only will incentivate smuggling and furtivity...

good to hear things arent as bleak as it seemed

 

[Dorifto]

good to hear things arent as bleak as it seemed

At least for now. Hope they will modify the law and make a new better one.

I don't care if I need to obtain a special permit, they should simply do the things right, legislating...

 

[Tentacle Toast]

Have you considered voting for a different party next time? Democracy certainly is a flawed tool, often working too slow to be of any use, but its a start.

Most of the Western world is beyond this as a remedy anymore, because...

... None of their laws make any sense at all, it's simply about more and more control...

...his last line holding the only solution.

They should legislate rather than banning, it will be much more beneficial. You have an exotic animal? Well follow this rules, easy. Banning only will incentivate smuggling and furtivity...

This would be the most sensible compromise & CONCLUSION, but it wouldn't end there. Take the great liberal State of New York, for example: we, as hobbyists, used to be able to keep venomous reptiles with a license issued by our state's Department of Environmental Conservation. I had mine in my early twenties, converting a room in my basement that met all of the physical requirements, had custom enclosures made that met all otf the physical requirements, agreed to all of the documenting requirements, & opened my home to the potential for unannounced warrantless searches whenever said officials felt the whim. Fast forward a few years, & I'd gotten out of keeping them. A couple years back, a certain species tickled my fancy, & I went to the DEC website...only to find that licensure is only open to certified lab personnel, of those with a direct university affiliation. So no snake for me. All such "legislation" will provide is a quiet back-door means to their desired ends, & by the time you find out about it, it'll be too late.
And as for YOUR last line there, SPOT-ON. Let's all be honest here...if we didn't have our scruples, how easy would it be to get just about anything we want? Probably faster than through legal channels, too. "Banning" is desired & done by either the completely incompetent, or cunning saboteur. It's in this sense I'm actually starting to with they DO ban guns here, as I'll have NO PROBLEM getting all that fun open-bolt full-auto stuff with 50+ end drum mags with hellcat loads, without any of the background checks & extra taxes paid for gimped semi's with 10rnd mags.

 

[jVendetta]

Buenas @jVendetta Right now the law it's paralized, even if it should be officially active from the next 29th.

Buenas,

Well, afaik the paralization is related with the inability at the moment of imposing the requirements for dog owners. The rest of the law, regarding exotics, remains the same and I really thought that was in order regardless.

Have you considered voting for a different party next time? Democracy certainly is a flawed tool, often working too slow to be of any use, but its a start.

I didn't vote for the current ruling party and to be honest I didn't partake in the last elections we just had because politics in my country is a complete circus at the moment, really saddening. This law was already in place though.

If they have already been drafted, voted on and passed those options may however be already gone.

The law has already been passed, some modifications were done to the draft to for example, include fishes as pets (as of now venomous animals, reptiles of more than 2 kgs and non-dog/cat mammals of more than 5 kgs as adults are forbidden among others) and is already in the State Official Bulletin. At the moment is out of discussion.

Some problems have arisen due to the new obligation of getting ID's and pet owner courses for dog owners because the means for that aren't in place just yet, but the rest of the law remains the same. The only option is a modification of the law by the parties in the congress or an indefinite paralization due to the reason above.

 

[Dorifto]

Buenas,

Well, afaik the paralization is related with the inability at the moment of imposing the requirements for dog owners. The rest of the law, regarding exotics, remains the same and I really thought that was in order regardless.

It applies to exotics too, they can't apply any sanctions without any solid regulation behind, and right now, there is absolutely nothing done, just a blanc page with a alarning title.

There is a huge industry behind this hobby, so I hope that they will put some pressure into the matter. If they follow with this nonsense, they will find themselves suffering the opposite what they want to achieve, ponds full of turtles, gold fishes, foraneous lizards and snakes in the wild... etc, time to time.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

Hello everyone, long-time lurker, Spanish keeper.

I thought it might be of interest, at least to stay informed about the regulations on keeping T's in other countries, to share information about the new law that will be enacted in Spain next week, on Friday the 29th. It's called the "Ley de Bienestar Animal" (Animal Welfare Law), and among other things, it prohibits the keeping of arthropods whose bites or venom could pose a serious danger to the well-being of humans or other animals, basically not considering them pets. As you can see, this is somewhat vague because a bite from a venomous tarantula could be life-threatening to a hamster, while it may not be considered significant for a healthy adult.

The law also determines that a positive animal list, which will specify which arthropods can be kept, will be created within a maximum of 24 months. It's quite likely that we will have to wait for two years for this list to be established, and T's won't probably be included.

Before said list is done, within the first 6 months after the law is enacted, we must notify the authorities if we had any pets that the law prohibits beforehand. In such case (sic), "the competent authorities will take the necessary measures for their intervention and placement in wildlife protection centers, zoos or animal protection organizations." Supposedly, as said in the media, only dangerous pets (the ones that they consider dangerous) will be intervened. The fines for keeping, selling, or transporting any animal not considered a pet by this law are quite hefty.

I tried to be as concise as possible, but as you can see, it looks rather grim for the hobby and hobbyists. I understand that most of you are from the US and may not be interested in Spanish legislation but this could potentially have implications for the entire EU as positive listings are being written in other countries. We are supposed to hand out our pets (or at least be in the risk of it) or be criminals. Sorry for the rambling and possible misspellings or miswordings.

Move to USA or Canada or some English speaker country . Sorry for your loss …of freedom.

 

[Introvertebrate]

.............It's quite likely that we will have to wait for two years for this list to be established, and T's won't probably be included................

If Ts aren't included, it shouldn't be a problem, right?

 

[jVendetta]

If Ts aren't included, it shouldn't be a problem, right?

It will be, as they call it, a positive list. Basically a white list establishing which animals that fall under the general forbidden categories can be kept.