Substrate

[Teotihuacan]

Hey guys ive been watching Daves little beasties channel on youtube. He seems very competent in spider care/ breeding and has done it for a long time.

In my quest to figuring out what kind of substrate is safe to use for my spiders ive been looking through his videos.
He uses potting compost alot and to quote him: "i use the cheap stuff". ive seen him use "jacks magic multi purpose compost" among other brands and these are brands with animal manure, NPK fertilizers and other additives. He even uses it for amphibians.

But then i google these things and the forum threads showing up from this site are all very against it. How would all you alarmists explain his success in keeping/breeding tarantulas if its so so dangerous as most members on this site claims?

regards

 

[TheraMygale]

Dave also uses a lot of forest humus. I think you should ask Dave his thoughts, and get back to us with it.

i also had these questions. Which is why i am only using cocofiber and reptisoil for now. Theres no potting soil or topsoil in my area that is guaranteed manure/fertilizer/pesticide free.

so for now im waiting. I harvested some forest humus but didnt go for it yet in my enclosures. I doubt there are tarantula nematodes in the soil in my local area.

manure can lead to mold. Which might not be bad but it can get overwhelming.

as far as pesticides go, thats not something i will ever dare try. What i mean is, if i don’t know if its in the bags or not. So i don’t want to risk it. Some brands offer some guarantees, but in the world of topsoil/potting soil, its still marketed for plants. There can always be micro traces that are tolerated for being sold to the general population.

by using forest humus, from a clean forest, you introduce good bacteria and friendlies like springtails. They clean the mold and stuff. However, thats in moist sub.

i dont think its that alarmist to think pesticides could be bad for tarantulas. I do think its worth exploring this more because it is a question that always comes back. Many of us want to use topsoil. But topsoil, being what it is, and how its harvested, isnt a safe guarantee.

members who use topsoil can give us more information. Its also safe to say that topsoil 20 years ago, isnt the same as today. As more people actualy figured out they are paying for dirt, they started adding manure and or compost (decomposed food etc) to make it more interesting in the horticulture world.

for the record, i am a professional horticulturist. I know soil. And thats why i am mitigated.

 

[Teotihuacan]

"for the record, i am a professional horticulturist. I know soil. And thats why i am mitigated."

Ok so link ONE brand that contains pesticides. If they add it why would they not advertise it on the bag or are you talking about contamination?
As far as i know they dont add pesticides to ANY potting compost or potting soil. And if they did would they not tell you?

 

[TheraMygale]

"for the record, i am a professional horticulturist. I know soil. And thats why i am mitigated."

Ok so link ONE brand that contains pesticides. If they add it why would they not advertise it on the bag or are you talking about contamination?
As far as i know they dont add pesticides to ANY potting compost or potting soil. And if they did would they not tell you?

i dont need to link one brand. Go read how they actualy harvest topsoil. It comes mostly from excavation sites. They dig out the stuff. And bag it. The end. Thats why there is a lot of clay in it. Some pesticides clear out, others are very persistant.

its not ADDED to the bag. Its in the soil already depending on what was there before. If its soil near a highway, that stuff will be loaded with salts and snow melting chemicals. They dont tell you where they harvest it.

its personal choice at that point. Btw, if it says “organic” topsoil. It just means theres manure or compost in it.

 

[Teotihuacan]

I asked about potting soil/compost NOT topsoil.
I understand that topsoil can be contaminated but thats not the question here.

The thing im curious about is all the people spouting off about pesticides/additives, and once again i cannot find any evidence that we should be worried about it in potting soil/compost.

I use a mix of potting compost(with organic fertilizers) and coco fibers btw.

 

[TheraMygale]

I asked about potting soil/compost NOT topsoil.
I understand that topsoil can be contaminated but thats not the question here.

The thing im curious about is all the people spouting off about pesticides/additives, and once again i cannot find any evidence that we should be worried about it in potting soil/compost.

I use a mix of potting compost(with organic fertilizers) and coco fibers btw.

There is no added pesticides in pottingsoil. Its usualy peatmoss with compost. Its not “soil” as in, the dirt you see under grass.

potting soil doesnt always mean the same for everyone, but now that i understand you really mean the stuff we use for potted plants:



so you pay more for a customized bag, then actual peat moss. Which you can use in your enclosures.

i mix peat and cocofiber to balance ph and reduce mold issues.

i provided ONE exemple of a mix. Some companies provide better quality. Some have no fertilizer. The ingredient list is usualy provided.

the little white balls, perlite, can be very annoying. Especialy in moisture dependants: they make their way back to the top eventualy.

i would chose a potting mix with the least of addivites, from a good quality maker.

some additives can still be an irritant to spiders. Thats where you need to do your personal research, depending on the bags you choose.

peat moss being very acidic, they add other products to balance the ph, to get near a 6, a neutral place for most plants. That is why its not just peat moss. The perlite or vermiculite is added to balance moisture retaining or draining.

thats why cactus potting mix is usualy peat sand etc.

and thats why most of us use cocofiber. Because cocofiber is now replacing peat in the plant industry because its very bad for the environment. Even if its an excellent growing substrate.

updated extra note: when watching online videos, its important to make sure one is speaking of the same thing: pottingmix might be topsoil for someone. Language barrier and geographic locality can create mix ups. Just like tarantula common names.

Dave uses all sorts of things. Sometimes he says: little beasties mix. Someone who hasnt watched all the videos, might not know exactly what his mix is.

I am not saying this is you, its for others reading this thread that might need this information.

 

[viper69]

On principle why would you choose a sub with harmful chemicals over one that doesn’t have them. I see NO logic there.

 

[Mustafa67]

Hey guys ive been watching Daves little beasties channel on youtube. He seems very competent in spider care/ breeding and has done it for a long time.

In my quest to figuring out what kind of substrate to use for my spiders ive been looking through his videos.
He uses potting compost alot and to quote him: "i use the cheap stuff". ive seen him use "jacks magic multi purpose compost" among other brands and these are brands with animal manure, NPK fertilizers and other additives. He even uses it for amphibians.

But then i google these things and the forum threads showing up from this site are all very against it. How would all you alarmists explain his success in keeping/breeding tarantulas if its so so dangerous as most members on this site claims?

regards

Ask him yourself. I have been in touch with many of the UK tarantula people and from what I see many of the UK tarantula “experts” keep Ts a bit different to how many in the USA keep them. But Ts seem to have been kept as pets since longer in America & I think Americans are ahead in their knowledge of their care.

I’d rather just go coco fibre. Its cheap, easy and can’t go wrong with it.

 

[Wolfram1]

normal potting soil, the cheap kind, is fine to use, i just don't like the consistency so i usually mix it with self collected topsoil 50/50.

the reason is that there is usually no need for the producers to use any chemicsls on it as the natural composting process sterilizes it with heat produced by the decomposer bacteria, killing any weed seeds etc. in the process.

sadly there is usually a small percentage of biological waste composted with it, but its not a big deal. Its hard to know whst process was used in the production and the quality of the waste going into it

some companies will be stricter about the type of organic waste they accept or the percentage that ultimately gets added to the usual tree detritus (bark, wood, etc.) beeing composted

Minerals, like calcium that are added during the composting period are not a problem for our animals.

its actually better to buy the cheapest stuff, as the more expensive ones sometimes have slow release fertilizer pellets, and other additives that you don't want and that can have deadly consequences for your spiders

I usually go for the indoor kind as theseoften use less manure than the potting soil for gardens etc.

Tom Poran has a few experiences with bad substrates that killed some of his spiders....

other additives like manure should be avoided as it is just not hygenic and may contamiate the soil, but it also depends on the quantity and the time it was added during the compsting process, the longer it has composted the better

if you can, avoid manure alltogether

 

[Teotihuacan]

On principle why would you choose a sub with harmful chemicals over one that doesn’t have them. I see NO logic there.

Because there is no harmful chemicals? Thats the point, show me an example of potting soil/compost with harmful additives.

 

[Gevo]

In my experience, folks on this forum actually have pretty diverse opinions on substrate and often acknowledge that those are opinions and that it’s ultimately keeper’s choice. We have some members who collect their own soil from where they live if they’re confident it’s uncontaminated, and we have others who say they won’t risk it. The general advice is to use soil with as few additives or contaminants as possible, and that’s because tarantula care is not well researched and we don’t know what will and won’t cause problems for them, so it’s prudent to err on the side of caution. I wouldn’t call that alarmist.

 

[viper69]

Because there is no harmful chemicals? Thats the point, show me an example of potting soil/compost with harmful additives.

I'm confused. Are you stating there are chemicals and pesticides in some subs or not?

 

[Teotihuacan]

Thank you for your thorough answer!
I just wanted to know why so many people talk about pesticides when there clearly is none except for contamination by chance or mistake.

And you are right, the naming and branding of things makes these things harder, im from sweden so i have had to translate top soil/ potting soil/potting compost to my own language and even then its a bit confusing but i feel i have a handle on it now.

So the only thing i hve a problem with is how confidently people are when they warn about pesticides/chemicals, i see now that the confidence is rooted in nothing and is just opinions.

I also think erring of the side of caution is a good idea. I have alot of experience in keeping arachnids and other animals.
But.. If i had none and i did a google search i would be very confused as i cant get a straight answer on the "danger" of potting soil/compost, only that it IS dangerous.
Again thank you for your time

I'm confused. Are you stating there are chemicals and pesticides in some subs or not?

Im saying there is no potting mixes that adds pesticides, and then i asked if you could provide any example of one that has it.

 

[Wolfram1]

Because there is no harmful chemicals? Thats the point, show me an example of potting soil/compost with harmful additives.

there may be some that put weed suppressants aka. Glyphosate or other substances into it, maybe even by mistake as you never know exactly where the detritus beeing composted comes from

i havent seen it yet but its probably better to be vigilant

and as i said the slow release fertilizers can be harmful, and those do exist aplenty

 

[viper69]

Im saying there is no potting mixes that adds pesticides, and then i asked if you could provide any example of one that has it.

OHH, that's completely different.

I don't grow plants.

I know some soils contain fertilizers- and I wouldn't use those.

 

[Teotihuacan]

there may be some that put weed suppressants aka. Glyphosate or other substances into it, maybe even by mistake as you never know exactly where the detritus beeing composted comes from

and as i said the slow release fertilizers can be harmful, and those do exist aplenty

Glyphosate is banned where im from and yeah you re right, the slow release fertilizer is something i would avoid. Its just the "added insect pesticide" crowd im trying to challenge.

 

[l4nsky]

I just wanted to know why so many people talk about pesticides when there clearly is none except for contamination by chance or mistake.

I mean, this is exactly the reasoning I use in avoiding top soil, potting soil, and compost. The material is not specifically meant for animals, it's meant for horticulture. As such, it is shipped with, handled with, and stored with other materials used in that profession, which can include pesticides.

When you're using a product made and marketed for use with animals, there is a higher degree of confidence that it's safe, it's not likely to have been contaminated in storage and transit, there's one less variable to worry about potentially contributing to a loss of an animal, and there are potential legal options in the event the material isn't safe for animals because it is specifically advertised for them.

I'm a breeder and an avid collector like Dave, although I probably only have a third of his broodstock. I understand the costs involved and don't fault anyone for trying to reduce them. In the end though, you get what you pay for and I'll be damned if I risk a $600 female that can potentially produce 5 figures worth of slings over her lifetime to save $40 on a bag of dirt.....

 

[viper69]

I mean, this is exactly the reasoning I use in avoiding top soil, potting soil, and compost. The material is not specifically meant for animals, it's meant for horticulture. As such, it is shipped with, handled with, and stored with other materials used in that profession, which can include pesticides.

When you're using a product made and marketed for use with animals, there is a higher degree of confidence that it's safe, it's not likely to have been contaminated in storage and transit, there's one less variable to worry about potentially contributing to a loss of an animal, and there are potential legal options in the event the material isn't safe for animals because it is specifically advertised for them.

I'm a breeder and an avid collector like Dave, although I probably only have a third of his broodstock. I understand the costs involved and don't fault anyone for trying to reduce them. In the end though, you get what you pay for and I'll be damned if I risk a $600 female that can potentially produce 5 figures worth of slings over her lifetime to save $40 on a bag of dirt.....

But if she was 599$ you are all in into experimenting

 

[WolfieKate]

Hey guys ive been watching Daves little beasties channel on youtube. He seems very competent in spider care/ breeding and has done it for a long time.

In my quest to figuring out what kind of substrate is safe to use for my spiders ive been looking through his videos.
He uses potting compost alot and to quote him: "i use the cheap stuff". ive seen him use "jacks magic multi purpose compost" among other brands and these are brands with animal manure, NPK fertilizers and other additives. He even uses it for amphibians.

But then i google these things and the forum threads showing up from this site are all very against it. How would all you alarmists explain his success in keeping/breeding tarantulas if its so so dangerous as most members on this site claims?

regards

I think the key for Dave, is he is always changing. A few months ago he hated coco fibre, now he’s mixing it a bit here and there to see what happens and he’s liking the results. So Dave hasn’t even finished experimenting with mixes yet and he is an experienced keeper and he’s great. But experience is the thing, he will have seen what works.
I suspect regulations around compost/top soil are more rigorous in the UK. But everything has the risk of contamination. In the 80/90s we were spraying glyphosate galore in our gardens.

As a beginner I love his videos but I’m not confident enough to try and experiment with substrate. I need absolute knowledge that if my spider croaks it wasn’t something I was being unsure with. Spider shop substrate (uk) isn’t that expensive. I tried Pro rep spider life but it had big lumps. I don‘t like coco fibre because it’s dusty and I live in a flat. So it’s what works for you and the risks we are willing to take that sit comfortably in our head but I feel I shouldn’t disadvantage or test my small collection for a few quid. I love them too much.

 

[Brewser]

Dirt mixed with Mulch and or Compost.

All Natural No Artificial Additives Either