snake breeding advice?

[xBurntBytheSunx]

i'm thinking of starting a few small snake breeding projects once i get my own place and am looking for advice. i probably won't be able to start for a year, at the very least, so i have plenty of time to plan.

i'm thinking of starting with womas b/c i have read nothing but wonderful things about them, and plus they seem like they sell high enough to pay for themselves and then some. i'm also considering a pair of expensive corns for the same reasons.

i have plenty of questions before i get started. are there any good books that would help me get started with breeding? can you generally breed one male snake with multiple females? also, i'm not looking to get rich, but are there any breeds of snakes that would be more profitable or that you would recommend for other reasons? (i'm not a snake expert by any stretch, so i'm also wanting only docile snakes)

also as far as cutting costs, i suppose breeding racks are a must...i'm concerned about the electric bill with having to get all those heat lights. is there any way to cut that down? solar panels or anything else?

ah well, i guess that is about 5 questions to many for one post...so any information about any of this is greatly appreciated.

 

[pitbulllady]

i'm thinking of starting a few small snake breeding projects once i get my own place and am looking for advice. i probably won't be able to start for a year, at the very least, so i have plenty of time to plan.

i'm thinking of starting with womas b/c i have read nothing but wonderful things about them, and plus they seem like they sell high enough to pay for themselves and then some. i'm also considering a pair of expensive corns for the same reasons.

i have plenty of questions before i get started. are there any good books that would help me get started with breeding? can you generally breed one male snake with multiple females? also, i'm not looking to get rich, but are there any breeds of snakes that would be more profitable or that you would recommend for other reasons? (i'm not a snake expert by any stretch, so i'm also wanting only docile snakes)

also as far as cutting costs, i suppose breeding racks are a must...i'm concerned about the electric bill with having to get all those heat lights. is there any way to cut that down? solar panels or anything else?

ah well, i guess that is about 5 questions to many for one post...so any information about any of this is greatly appreciated.

If you're breeding a desert or tropical species, you aren't going to be able to get around auxilliary heat. Undertank heat mats and heat tape can be hooked up to external thermostats(again, designed for reptiles, so you won't find those at Wal-Mark or Lowe's)that can minimize the effects on the light bill. I don't have experience with solar power, so I can't respond to the effectiveness of that for cutting your power bill. If you're breeding temperate species, though, unless your house gets unusually cold, you won't need auxilliary heat. If you like Corns, but want something bigger and more unusual, that actually LIKES it cool and breeds like rabbits, you might want to consider a highly-underrated group of really nice snakes, the Asian Beauty Snakes, which are Rat Snakes. They get really big, as long as many Boas and Pythons but without quite as much bulk(though I've had Taiwans that pushed that envelope, lol), are usually very docile and calm, eat rodents, and prefer temps in the upper 60's through mid 70's, but not higher. Most females will double-clutch each year if given a chance, and the babies are HUGE when they come out of the egg, which avoids one of the issues you will find with Corns: tiny little babies that cannot even eat a pinkie and often don't eat, especially in the odder morphs. I've had Blue and Taiwan Beauties actually eat right out of the egg, which is really unusual for any snake.

pitbulllady

 

[Matt K]

I love pitbulllady's posts....always right on the nose.

But I would add this: Never keep a reptile based on its perceived current value or with the intent you are going to sell any to make/ turn a profit. Keep reptiles because you love them and they are interesting, there are no "rich" reptile keepers....any of them who appear to have money get it from another source entirely.

You never know when animals will sell, and when they do IF they sell for enough to get your money back.

 

[lindsey crashed]

I love pitbulllady's posts....always right on the nose.

But I would add this: Never keep a reptile based on its perceived current value or with the intent you are going to sell any to make/ turn a profit. Keep reptiles because you love them and they are interesting, there are no "rich" reptile keepers....any of them who appear to have money get it from another source entirely.

You never know when animals will sell, and when they do IF they sell for enough to get your money back.

this is all important... yes, woma's typically go for a good amount of money.. but you have to find the buyers, which is sometimes not nearly as easy as anticipated and frustrating.
vision racks are awesome. they are expensive, but totally worth it, in my opinion. the heat wire runs throughout the unit, and i don't remember it making much difference on our electricity bill.
i loved mine, but would love to hear other's opinions on these racks..?

http://www.visionproducts.us/htm7/racks.html

 

[Lorgakor]

I would not start with Woma's. Yes they are as great a snake as you describe, but they are known to be difficult to breed. They are hard to come by here in Canada because the main breeders never know when they might get lucky with their breeders. They might only lay one year in five. It's very hit or miss from what I've learned. It might be years before you even make your money back, let alone a profit.

 

[xBurntBytheSunx]

ah thats interesting, i'd read womas are extremely easy to breed

thanks for the advice pitbulllady, i'll have to check out those rat snakes.

and once again, not looking to get rich. i love animals, and am just looking for a hobby that pays for itself.

 

[xBurntBytheSunx]

i've been reading up on the thai beauty rats, they look like a very impressive species. i'll definitely have to consider them.

i almost forgot, one of the other species i had my eye on were northern pine snakes...any thoughts on those?

 

[dtknow]

Agreed(I've been thinking about this too)...for a first time breeding project, especially if you are looking to break even at least, you want something that can be had for a moderate amount and that can be moved with relative ease without dropping your prices(so you don't have as high of a chance of being stuck with the babies for tooo long). Species that the market is already saturated(corns, milks/kings)...probably not the best choice unless you have some unique stock.

But in the end, choose something you like. I currently have a pair of egg eaters, and while they pose some unique problems(until you start seeing frozen eggs available at your petstore they probably won't become popular), they are fascinating snakes.

 

[pitbulllady]

i've been reading up on the thai beauty rats, they look like a very impressive species. i'll definitely have to consider them.

i almost forgot, one of the other species i had my eye on were northern pine snakes...any thoughts on those?

Northern Pines are not as easy to breed as the Asian Beauty Rat group, and they are prohibited in many states as Endangered/Threatened. Like all Pituophis species, they can be moody, and when they're angry, everyone in the house will know it! I've had some really sweet ones, and some that were just plain nasty, and a nasty-tempered snake that big can be handful.

I will second what Matt K said, though. Pick a snake because you like that species, NOT because you want to make money. Trust me-you WON'T. You will wind up spending way more than you make, if you do it right, just as with breeding dogs. The only breeders who make more money than they spend are the poor-condition "puppy mills", because they cut so many corners. Even if there is a profit, if you don't like the animals because they're messy, bad-tempered, picky eaters, expensive to house, etc., you will not be happy. Womas are among the most-difficult pythons to breed, actually, as has been stated. If you've never bred snakes before, it is always best to start out with species that are easy to breed and keep and have a fairly steady market, even if the going prices aren't that great.

pitbulllady

 

[Cirith Ungol]

I've bread corns for several years. The female would lay two clutches with about 12-15 eggs each. Don't expect that many from a relatively young female, as I've heard they lay more eggs as they mature, however, I can't say for certain.

They were kept at about 23-25C all year round (except for summer), no hibernating. As mentioned, if your corns aren't very special you might have trouble selling the viable ones. It would take me about half a year to sell all survivors and I needed to actively go out trying to find buyers. I just about went even. Unless you do this out of passion it's not worth it.

From an average of 25 there would be about 5-7 which wouldn't make it, a tiny fraction over the years had defects, but most of those which didn't make it didn't eat. Those who ate didn't have any trouble eating pinkies (a tiny variety I must add). I tried force feeding once but it did not agree with me. Especially since the snake would likely have to be force fed for a long time, or its entire life. So I ended up removing it.

I kept all snakes in separate boxes with substrate, water bowl and hide, in a relatively dark and cold place (about 20C), fed them once a week, when they had eaten I had them in the room at normal temp.

I kept the eggs in a Styrofoam box with a heat pad and a water bowl on it. The eggs were in their own little crate inside it. It's been a while so I can't remember the actual temperature at which I kept them. It might have been 29C but you have to look that up. I've heard that you're not supposed to turn the eggs once they're laid so that they would have to be held and put in the same position as after laying, I did that, but I can't confirm if there actually is any truth to it. The reason I heard was that the air bubble that forms in the egg remains in the same position (top of the egg) after laying and if you would turn it up side down the embryo might suffocate. I don't remember exactly but it might have taken them about 6-8 weeks to hatch.

Before laying the corn female would shed. During the 2-3 days after she'd constantly search through the tank for a good egg laying spot. She prefers it dark, moist and cramped. If you have nothing else moist in the tank the snake might chose to lay the eggs in the water bowl, so for safeties sake you have to take that out. In stead you should put a plastic box with vermiculite in the tank, lid on, but with a hole in the lid (no sharp edges) large enough for the snake to comfortable get in and out. Fill the box so that there is about an inch of air in it, that will feel safe and snug. Once my female laid the eggs under the water bowl (it had no water in it), it's a very large, heavy ceramic bowl, like a huge dog food bowl. It's quite incredible what they chose to pick for a good spot at times. If suddenly you don't see the snake for a day or two, after she's been searching for a place, then go look, carefully. She might have dug into the substrate.

Egg laying usually took anywhere from 12-24h.

I doubt you would do anything other than that, but only sell your snakes to serious people or pet shops. Checking what the customer knows about that type of snake is a must in my opinion. I've heard horror stories of a guy selling a baby cobra to someone whom I wouldn't even lend my ballpoint pen. That cobra was kept in a fish tank with a lose glass lid and the breeder had to go three times to search for the snake in the flat as the owner was in total chock every time it happened. Neither of them should ever have been near any snakes.

Don't forget to tell the customer that they have to check that the eyelids are shed and what to do just in case they're not. Make sure they got your phone number or email.

Not knowing what you know I just send this along as well: Don't try to sex the snakes by probing unless you're already an expert on it. If you don't know exactly what you're doing you can seriously harm the snake. Even being an expert I'm not sure it's a sexing method I'd feel comfortable with on small snakes. I personally have never sexed by probing I might add. Don't either try to sex them by trying to press out the male sexual organs, more often than not, attempts at doing so are harmful. One method of "guessing" the sex is by comparing tail lengths. It's not a sure method, if it even works at all, but at least it doesn't do any harm.

Most of all, have fun! It's an incredible experience!

 

[xBurntBytheSunx]

thanks again all for the great info.

i'm always amazed at what an uncomfortable and taboo topic money is. ;P
its just like bringing it up is kicking dirt in people's eyes. i have one cal king, and if the person i have her out on loan with gets a good clutch i will have a good chance of breaking even, or god forbid make a few bucks. as far as i'm concerned thats not a bad deal i love my snake, and if she can pay for herself, then all the better.

like i said, i'm interested in snakes that are docile, easy to take care of, and worth enough money to take the time to breed. if it meets those criteria, i'm sure i'll love it.

and honestly if a snake isn't worth money the chances of finding it a decent home are greatly reduced. honestly i think it would be irresponsible to breed a snake people don't want. like for instance you can't even give away regular corns, so why breed those when i could breed something people want?

 

[Lorgakor]

I hear Sand Boas are not too difficult to breed. You could go with the different morphs of Kenyans that fetch higher price, like the paradox albinos, or the rough scales are great too.

 

[sharpfang]

Slithering Snakes

I love pitbulllady's posts....always right on the nose.

But I would add this: Never keep a reptile based on its perceived current value or with the intent you are going to sell any to make/ turn a profit. Keep reptiles because you love them and they are interesting, there are no "rich" reptile keepers....any of them who appear to have money get it from another source entirely.

You never know when animals will sell, and when they do IF they sell for enough to get your money back.

I Agree w/ this statement.....

I would not start with Woma's. Yes they are as great a snake as you describe, but they are known to be difficult to breed. They are hard to come by here in Canada because the main breeders never know when they might get lucky with their breeders. They might only lay one year in five. It's very hit or miss from what I've learned. It might be years before you even make your money back, let alone a profit.

Womas have become easier to breed, over the last few years of Info and c.b.
specimins. They can be aquired now for $175 - $200+ for babies...But grow 2
a Large size. Start w/ something smaller.
I recommend starting w/ sometype of King/Milk snake variety, like the Variable kings, or Sonoran Blax. Sand or RosyBoas are docile and Live Bearing!

GL - Jason

 

[dtknow]

A quality bloodline of thayeri that can be traced back would be a good bet. These guys throw all kinds of neat variations within a clutch. Their are unknown hybrids on the market so you need to make sure you start with good stock.

Similar to th above, if you can provide cool brumation temps sonoran mountain kings(pyros) would be a good one to do especially if you do not want to be swamped with babies. Females typically have one clutch yearly of 5 or so eggs.

Trans pecos rats are beautiful snakes.

One good beginner species that is nearing market saturation(probably within the next year or so) but will likely move easier than corns is the Western Hognose. They are very prolific...and very neat snakes.

 

[ShawnH]

I have about 50 or so adult breeder snakes. I keep a pretty good variety but mostly I focus my interest in the under 7' range.

First off, snakes do not need any type of lighting. (noticed you mentioned heat lamps) So the method I prefer to use is a rack setup. I have about 10 racks from http://www.jasons-jungle.com/ . I prefer his racks because they are inexpensive and work well for the size range of snakes I typically keep. The racks have heat tape, one of the more efficient ways to heat a large amount of snakes for less wattage then a single light bulb.

As far as picking a species to start off with... some things to consider are housing of course and eventually if the snake lays eggs or bear live young.
So if you have egg-laying snakes you will need to buy or build an incubator. Small ones are pretty affordable for the most part. Incubating eggs is not a hard thing to do so don't let that scare you much.

I personally do not breed womas myself. I have some different sand boas, milks , kings and rat snakes. I just base what I have in my collection on what is interesting to me and not on the amount of money they are actually worth. For me it's just a hobby and I give most of my litters away to friends and people from my day job who have kids. It's a nice bonus if I can cover the cost of my frozen mouse order with a clutch however.

To feed your snakes I would advise you to order from a site like www.rodentpro.com (whom I have used for years) and just keep a stocked freezer. You will from time to time need to find a source for live rodents because some snakes (especially hatchlings) will only feed on live until you can convert them over to frozen thawed.

Anyhow you may already know most of this but this is how I run my setup basically. Good luck

 

[dtknow]

ShawnH: How much do you pay per mouse with large orders like that including shipping. Petstores and even breeders can be expensive(still paying like .75 per each mouse like that...certainly better than 1.50 at a petstore for pinkies)

 

[ShawnH]

Well I try to shop when they have their sales. Last time I ordered I believe they had a 30% sale on a few of the sizes that I do stock. They typically sell them in bags of 100-25 based on size of the mice with a large adult mouse working to about 45 cents per mouse. Much cheaper then a pet store. I typically spend maybe $300 yearly feeding the snakes I keep. Remember that snakes typically do not eat during brumation and some females won't accept food while gravid.

Many people breed their own rodent supply... I tried to do this but I don't think it was cheaper and also I found myself spending much more time taking care of the mice more then taking care of the animals I love. Not to mention I found the mice to smell disgusting and to be just nasty in general to work with.

 

[xBurntBytheSunx]

hmm i forgot about rosy boas...those are pretty tempting also.
well i have a lot to consider, but at least it sounds like i have plenty of good species to pick from

 

[johnharper]

Rosy boas are great snakes they don't get too big. They give birth to live young but it would take longer to see the babies pop out and develop. I have one bred one snake species so far and it was jungle carpet pythons and I had good sucess rates. I also tried to breed california kingsnakes but the female tried to eat the male so I never tried that species again it was an unpleastant task tryinbg to seperate the pair but both made it unscathed.

John

 

[ShawnH]

Yes Rosy boas are nice snakes. I have a small breeding group of albino white-waters. For best results you should brumate them for the winter then fatten them up and let them shed before you introduce them to eachother.