Same Bloodline

[Tanguito]

Is it ok to mate a male and female T's from the same bloodline?

 

[Malhavoc's]

inbreeding isnt soemthing that has been discussedo nhere inawhile. but it depends on how far down the line your talking? siblings I take it? I dont think the first generation of such a breeding would be affected but I dont recomend on extended inbreeding in later generations.. I'm sure that inbreeding is a commen occursnce in captivity wheather we know it or not.. I have nothing to draw on. so I am uncertain but I dont think inbreeding has as much of a impact in inverts as mamels..

 

[Code Monkey]

As Malhavoc says, it is unknown just how much inbreeding affects inverts. My gut is that it's not that serious of a an issue but I still would never cross siblings or parent to child unless there was a very good reason to do so (e.g. the first few individuals of a new species for which further collection is problematic such as P. metallica or A. geniculata not all that many years ago).

On the side arguing it's probably not that big of a problem we have things like roach cultures that have been in culture for 50 or more years. Additionally, breeding within extended family groups has been observed in some wild populations of Poecilotheria (e.g. subfusca) and it's probable that things like Brachypelma probably undergo some degree of inbreeding as well due their nature of forming "colonies" where females that live tend to build their burrow relatively near their place of birth - wandering males are most likely to encounter a distant cousin or ancestral aunt than a totally non-related female in many cases.

However, on the other side, we have small study Rick West did where he kept crossing sibling to sibling & child/parent in a few successive generations of, I believe, a Chilobrachys species: each successive generation was smaller with higher incidences of moulting problems. The criticisms of this study are that there's nothing saying it was inbreeding itself causing the decline; for instance, we know there is a general trend that says the younger you breed a female the smaller her final size. Another thing is that this may just be a problem with captive breeding in general since we attempt to get as many slings as possible to adult hood where in nature the overwhelming majority are 'naturally selected' prior to breeding, i.e. all the genetic diversity in the world may not help these sorts of problems and only a new sort of unnatural selection of multiple generations in captivity will smooth out the wrinkles.

Anyhoo, unless you have a better reason to inbreed than "I'd rather not spend the money or go the trouble of finding a non (or at least less) related mate I would recommend against it on principle. However, if you decide to not heed advice, it most probably won't result in the equivalent of deaf dalmations in tarantulas.

 

[Tanguito]

Thank you both guys, I really appreciate all that info. I was going to buy a few spiderlings of the same spp (H. Lividum in fact) to try my first breeding project, but I think I better buy adults or juveniles from different dealer.

 

[Code Monkey]

Thank you both guys, I really appreciate all that info. I was going to buy a few spiderlings of the same spp (H. Lividum in fact) to try my first breeding project, but I think I better buy adults or juveniles from different dealer.

Two things:

1) If your intent is breeding, buying a group of spiderlings is not your best bet. You don't have any idea what sort of gender distribution you'll get and without some manipulation on your part of temps and feeding you can't be guaranteed that your males won't die of old age before you have a good sized female.

2) Buying from different dealers is not a guarantee of unrelatedness with slings. Many tarantulas have large egg sacs and dealers only have finite customer bases. In general, with a species that has large numbers of young, CB slings will be sold to several different dealers (this is why you'll see an uncommon species show up on all the lists at the same time).

With H. lividum, though, you can easily obtain WC juves and adults which would let you start with an unrelated pair. Good luck.

 

[Malhavoc's]

So in conclusion how many people here keep precise bloodlines. I know I am trying to in my breeding attempts currently. but isnce its first gen still I dont have too much of a problem keeping sort.. my biggest problem is getting pre blood line records because 4/5ths my spiders are pet store bought.

Another question with the thought in mind. Would it be a god idea for dealers to start shipping blood line charts with the spiders they ship out. It ould help deter inbreeding/cross breeding species?

 

[G_Wright]

I thought you couldn't inbreed spiders from the same sac anyway as the males mature and die before the females do

 

[Code Monkey]

I thought you couldn't inbreed spiders from the same sac anyway as the males mature and die before the females do

Well, as I pointed out 2 posts ago, it's relatively easy to manipulate maturation times (i.e. feed fems more and keep them warmer to get them to maturity faster than males). Moreso, although this is widely reported as fact, I don't think there's been many people who have actually kept records to the point that we can say it's true in all cases. In fact, I've seen people who did keep records and saw no difference in maturation times between genders in the species they were observing. It's probably a general trend but there are also going to be species that it doesn't hold for as well as the fact there will always be some that wouldn't follow the trend.

 

[Code Monkey]

Another question with the thought in mind. Would it be a god[sic] idea for dealers to start shipping blood line charts with the spiders they ship out. It ould[sic] help deter inbreeding/cross breeding species?

This is brought up from time to time and, while it sounds good in practice, it's impossible to implement. Among problems

• it requires the establishment of some form of standardised record keeping to identify tarantulas.
• it would require the cooperation of all dealers
• it would require the cooperation of all hobbyists
• it would require omniscient knowledge about all currently existing tarantulas in the hobby

Ultimately, since so many slings come from hobbyists who may or may not know anything about the history you'd wind up creating artificial bloodlines that may very well be related and a general mess. Without something like the AKC for Ts as well as the universal cooperation of hobbyists and dealers across the globe it's just well meaning hassle.

 

[G_Wright]

Well, as I pointed out 2 posts ago, it's relatively easy to manipulate maturation times (i.e. feed fems more and keep them warmer to get them to maturity faster than males). Moreso, although this is widely reported as fact, I don't think there's been many people who have actually kept records to the point that we can say it's true in all cases. In fact, I've seen people who did keep records and saw no difference in maturation times between genders in the species they were observing. It's probably a general trend but there are also going to be species that it doesn't hold for as well as the fact there will always be some that wouldn't follow the trend.

Hummm interesting

 

[Immortal_sin]

I think blood lines were discussed at one point on the ATS list. Good question. I know that when I send a male out on loan, I inform the person where I got the male. When I send slings out, I let them know who the parents were. Other than that, it's almost impossible to keep track of bloodlines.
Unless everyone did it, it would almost seem pointless...

 

[Malhavoc's]

*grumbles and rips of some papers named [attempt at bloodlines* Ashame we coudln't oraganize something liek that would bwe alot easier to try selective breeding of tazrantulas for certain qualities [yes we msut play god!] Aslso I dont think we have a general standered for The size that a female mutures at as code said The inbreeding project sizes were reduced in each generation obviously because of the time [at least thats oen factor] for a female tarantula to reach its maximum leg span so I wouldn't rule out breeding of siblings very easily infact I'm sure it happens more then often in our hobby then we think because in addition to that factor we dont all keep ours at the same temp we dont all feed them at the same tiem so its really hard to see which is maturing first in two different homes..