Rattie Question

[desertdweller]

I adopted two baby male ratties that have been housed together since about 6 wks old. They are now about 10 weeks and one has grown considerably larger than the other. "Jet" outweighs Pauly by at least 30%.

Tonight I noticed Pauly has a bite that bleed and is now scabbed over. Is there such a thing as a dominant male? Is this something to be worried about; enough to separate them?

Thanks.

 

[El Viejo]

You need to separate them or else you will soon only have one rat. When they start to reach maturity they will fight for dominance.

 

[Diggy415]

yes seperate them, you will have a very scabby and infected rat.

 

[halfwaynowhere]

When I had my two boys, they started fighting with each other, but I just let them be because there was no blood. If one is hurting the other enough to draw blood, I'd say separate them. You wouldn't want that little guy to keep on getting hurt.

 

[Neuroticax]

Ok first, I have questions.

1) Stupid question but are you sure they're both males?

2) How big is their cage?

3) Do you let them out for playtime?



Hormones can start as early as 3 months, this could be the start of some aggressive behavior due to that.

Yes, there is such thing as a dominant rat. Females have the same alpha female syndrome.

If their cage is too small there will be quibbling due to the lack of space and territory. Not having adequate roaming time outside of the cage can also cause stress (along with a small cage) and cause fights.

After these questions we'll figure it out from there.


Right now there is NO NEED to separate them unless there is fur flying and blood spatter everywhere. (I exaggerate but you get the idea.)

 

[Mushroom Spore]

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason one is growing so much less than the other has to do with being bullied/dominated, and stressed and/or not getting his full share of the food because of it.

 

[vvx]

Rats always establish a hierarchy with an alpha. Usually after that's established the fighting is pretty minimal. (But if you move them to a new cage or change the rats in the group the battle for alpha status could begin again.)

Common saying on rat boards is "no blood no foul". You have blood so that definitely needs watching.

One possibility is to neuter the dominant rat. Often neutering reduces aggression -- in fact it may be a hormone imbalance causing aggression. Cost is $50 + depending on area vets, but they should be able to quote you over the phone for that.

 

[Neuroticax]

Neutering can also cut down, if not eliminate scent marking. If you decide to neuter, make sure the boy(s) are healthy with no resp. problems. 5 months is usualy a good time for the neuter.

 

[desertdweller]

Ok first, I have questions....

1) Stupid question but are you sure they're both males?
2) How big is their cage?
3) Do you let them out for playtime?......

Good comments from everyone-thanks.

To answer questions:
1. LOL Yes.
2. They are in a small cage, 57 gallon tub, that I am trying to upgrade to a large one. (I'm so totally broke…)
3. Absolutely, play time is mandatory each night and I play with them too.

I also have three girls in a separate tank, same size, they are a bit smaller than the small male. They play fabulously together and all bunk peacefully. The males don't really play well together, they seem to just hang out.

I have thought of getting them neutered…

Thanks,
Sydney

 

[Neuroticax]

Yeah I would suggest neutering the one, or even both so that way you could just keep them all together, boy and girls.

I hear you about being broke, try and get a bigger cage asap. Ferret Nations are REALLY good for rats, especially when you can add the levels. (It comes in 1,2 & 3 levels)

Check Craigslist like daily for Ferret Nations or even try putting an add for a used one that can be fixed. Sometimes people just throw that away and it's perfectly fine with a coat of primer and paint, you know?

Just watch them very closely right now, as long as it's just little scabs they should be ok but like vvx said, the no blood no foul rule comes in turn, once there's more blood than a scab time to do some mentoring. :wall:

Here's some information on neutering and after care and whatnot. This place also has awesome information on other rat care stuff.

Surgery page: http://ratfanclub.org/surgery.html
Home page: http://ratfanclub.org/helpinfo.html

 

[vvx]

Actually it might be worth waiting a couple weeks to get a critter nation. Same frame as a ferret nation but the wire is 1/2" spaced instead of 1". Neuter the males and you could keep all of the rats, male and female alike, in a 2-story critter nation. (The ferret nation would probably not be a great choice with females because they could fit through the bars.)

 

[Neuroticax]

Or she could just build her own.

I plan on it one of these days.

 

[desertdweller]

You all are a great help Thanks so much. Really good ideas and input.

I did notice, as one of you suggested, that Jet, the dominant rat was eating with his body between Pauly and the food dish. No coincidence there I'm sure. I'm going to the vet tomorrow with Pauly, his bite wounds have become infected with his scratching making it worse. My vet actually has reasonable costs to a fault! She is fairly knowledgeable too.

Thanks also for the addresses of other sites for info. Top notch.

What would a hormonal imbalance look like compared to a normal one? Too dominant??

 

[vvx]

Pretty much it would just make it overly aggressive/dominating and the rat would likely scent mark excessively.

 

[Neuroticax]

^^ Yeah that.


You're welcome for the info. Keep us updated on how things go.

 

[desertdweller]

Cute update:
After I separated the boys, Jet, MR tough guy, was confused and scared, spent his first night alone and refused to eat. I tried putting them together again as Pauly's wounds were healing. Jet was so happy he raced around and even bruxed! However, first thing he did was steal food from Pauly. Harumph. Separation again. Still no eating for Jet.

Last night I brought Jet in to my bedroom and placed his container by my bed. I hung my hand in there over the bed and soon the fun started. He played and played with my hand as if I was his new found buddy! I chased, played, and he rolled over ofte,n just like I was another rattie wrestling with him. Then-- He was so happy he started eating. After a while he fell peacefully asleep.

I had figured he might be a social eater like some birds. I'd also caught him earlier that day sulking and nervously biting his own tail, gently. Reminded me of a friend's parrot pulling out it's feathers when left alone for a few days with a pet sitter. So what's next? I have not a clue but I do have a new friend, Jet. Pauly is healing nicely and so far enjoys the solitude. I am searching feverishly for a large container...will keep you posted.

 

[Neuroticax]

Well what you can do now is since you've seen him straight take his food is feed Pauly seperatly if you'd like to keep them together. If you can, try and make a Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner type routine. No idea how long this will last but I've had this before. Get a couple jars of baby food and instant baby oatmeal to feed to Pauly to get his strength up and plus some rats just LOVE baby food and it's good for them anyway.

Try giving Pauly some roam time alone with a pile or two of food for him or feed him while Jet has roam time, so he can at least eat for now.

It's so cute he decided your hand was a new found friend.

 

[Gesticulator]

I guess I found this thread a little late, but I'll still contribute.
Even males that are raised together can have dominance issues. I have 9 males, and only two had aggression issues. Neither of these two were part of my original 4.
One was neutered about a month after his arrival, as I had no success with intros. He is now part of the pack, but has become the omega. The other is currently awaiting surgery, and I am hoping the neuter calms his aggression as well.
You mentioned that they are in a tank, so as was already said, space could be part of the problem. The FNs are great and the CN is now out and available. (My FN is only 2 months old, and I wish I had waited a bit longer). I found two cheap Marchioro cages on ebay, that I use as well.
If the bloody bites don't subside, neutering may be your only option. You could try separating the boys in different cages, and then letting them out for playtime together and see what happens. Be ready with a towel to grab one if they do start fighting.
One of my guys was bitten so badly, he became so sick, I thought I was going to lose him. The vet put him on Zithro for 3 weeks (no success on Baytril), and he is back to his old self! I was also giving him Ensure to lap up to get his weight back up.
I am so glad to hear you are taking yours to the vet. Good luck! Let us know.

 

[desertdweller]

Thanks for all you said, Gest., helpful too. I am now seeing that Baytril is not keeping his wounds clear enough. They were healing but now have gone sour again. Vet tomorrow. Haven't heard of Zithro but will ask my vet about it. Once he started eating alone, Pauly has already gotten back some vigor.

Nice progress with the boys tonight and I am excited but still aware and cautious. It's so cute too. I found a little basket with a bell on it which they used to sleep in together as wee ones. As soon as I got it out, the sound of the bell brought Jet running to leap in. On a hunch I put Pauly in and he too made a bee line for it. They have been hunkered down warm and cozy now for hours. Whenever I check on them I see either a black and white or tan nose peek out. We'll see how it goes.

I never dreamed I would become so caught up and loving the dynamics of critters whose weight is measures in ounces and who already have my little finger wrapped around them.

 

[Neuroticax]

I thought the same thing when I first started caring for rats. I was looking for something different and I sure found it. lol Not many people understand how much personality they can have and how cuddly and affectionate they are.

Funny thing is, I'm allergic to rats. I just have to wash my hands and arms really good after handling them. lol