Rant: Fed up with Fishkeeping

[LythSalicaria]

I've slowly been phasing out my fish tanks to make room for Ts and herps. I had intended to end up with only two tanks: One 45 gallon for my community fish, and then one 65 gallon for the Red Devil cichlid that remains on my fish wish list to this day. With all the headaches my tropical community aquarium has been giving me, I'm about ready to give up on fishkeeping entirely.

Any fishkeepers here, please forgive me for this. I'm just venting frustration over my individual situation and certain problems that lie within the hobby itself. I still think fish are awesome and beautiful and rewarding to keep when the stars align right. The biggest problem is the fact that the hobby has been screwed up entirely by people playing god and hybridizing fish, cross breeding between subspecies, selectively breeding to enhance mutations...the list goes on, but let me elaborate on my beef a little.

Take mollies, for instance. These fish are extremely popular choices for tropical freshwater and brackish aquariums because of their hardiness, inquisitive personalities and probably most of all because of their fondness for eating algae. This species is beyond FUBAR. Mollies from completely different regions have been cross-bred to the point that you have absolutely no idea what kind of molly you're getting unless you have the good fortune to come across one that's WC. Hence why I'm not bothering to use any of their scientific names. Most of the mollies available in pet stores and even from breeders have such muddled genetics that it's virtually impossible to pinpoint which scientific name is accurate for them.

Red Devil cichlids are another example; there's a chance that if you see one labelled Red Devil in a pet store, it's actually a Midas cichlid. There are other species and hybrids that sell under the same name, but the true Red Devil cichlid is an Amphilophus labiatus. They're unbelievably rare to come by in my area, and none of the people at either of my local pet stores know the difference even if one did become available.

Lets move on to part two of my rant; I'm just getting warmed up. The information available online about Fishkeeping is so inconsistent it's maddening. Even on forums, coming from experienced keepers, the information can be completely contradictory. This is what led to the headaches I mentioned at the beginning of this long spiel. Some sources said that Angelfish could be kept in community aquariums. Others said they could be pretty aggressive/territorial. I kept reading and found myself changing my mind so many times that I finally decided to flip a coin on whether to add Angels to my community setup or not. Well...I got two, and lucky me, one was a male, one a female. They paired up and ever since they have been growing steadily more territorial as they slowly creep towards adulthood. I learned a lesson: Always err on the side of caution in fishkeeping. The aptly named Bonnie and Clyde have dwindled the population of adult livebearers in my tank. All I have left are two swordtails, three mollies and a very lonely male platy. I'm thinking I'm just going to take the livebearers I have left, babies included, to my LPS to have them rehomed. They're pretty good about stuff like that.

I can tell you one thing though, if Bonnie and Clyde kill my horseface loach I'm going to feed the sadistic little brats to my cats.

 

[Micrathena]

One good way to ensure proper identification is to catch the fish yourself, as I do. It's more fun anyway. Actually, I just caught a sculpin today!
...Of course, small freshwater fish may be more limited in your area.

 

[LythSalicaria]

One good way to ensure proper identification is to catch the fish yourself, as I do. It's more fun anyway. Actually, I just caught a sculpin today!
...Of course, small freshwater fish may be more limited in your area.

That does sound like fun! I don't know of very many small species of fish in my area aside from Sun fish, but I'll have to do some research. I might be missing out on something here.

 

[dementedlullaby]

I'm also an avid fishkeeper and share your frustration. Hybridizing makes me want to punch idiots in the face. Rant on my friend.

I've had a green spotted puffer for over 8 years now. She's my baby. But I doubt I'd ever get another I was younger and dumber. Still feel bad for supporting the practice of pulling the poor girl out of her natural habitat just for my enjoyment. She's adapted to us awesome but I still can't help but feel she would of been happier in the ocean/estuaries. /sigh. You should see her at feeding time though. Oh boy if she's not first to be fed you sure know it. SPLLLLASH

 

[Fishcrunch]

If you like Cichlids, then you may want to try and catch some of the smaller, more colorful sunfish like the Dollar and Longear Sunfish. It's hard to beat a Breeding male longear in appearance.

 

[vespers]

I've slowly been phasing out my fish tanks to make room for Ts and herps.

The information available online about Fishkeeping is so inconsistent it's maddening. Even on forums, coming from experienced keepers, the information can be completely contradictory.

Don't expect the tarantula and herp hobbies to be much different in that regard.

 

[cold blood]

Don't expect the tarantula and herp hobbies to be much different in that regard.

It actually is quite different, at least with regards to the suspect breeding (not the inconsistent info), unlike t's and herps, hybrid fish are almost always sterile, so it ends with them instead of diluting a captive bred species.

Funny that you bring up mollies, the only time I have ever bought them was as either target fish for cichlids or feeders....I find them extremely uninteresting fish, almost like goldfish.

I used to keep jewel cichlids among others. Coolest fish I ever kept were African leaf fish, if I could ever locate them again, I would probably jump on them...such cool fish in every way. I also used to be really into plecos, dang they can look impressive.

In Ontario you can usually find rock bass along the shores. They are pretty aggressive and can look pretty cool with their red eyes...super hardy and easy to catch and keep, too. Small smallmouth bass or Northern pike are also super cool aquarium fish when they are small....abundant and with the slot limits Ontario has on both, its perfectly legal to keep very small ones.

 

[The Snark]

I suppose if you get too fed up you could just toss some Oscars in. Or phylum jump and toss in a laticauda.

 

[LythSalicaria]

It actually is quite different, at least with regards to the suspect breeding (not the inconsistent info), unlike t's and herps, hybrid fish are almost always sterile, so it ends with them instead of diluting a captive bred species.

Funny that you bring up mollies, the only time I have ever bought them was as either target fish for cichlids or feeders....I find them extremely uninteresting fish, almost like goldfish.

I used to keep jewel cichlids among others. Coolest fish I ever kept were African leaf fish, if I could ever locate them again, I would probably jump on them...such cool fish in every way. I also used to be really into plecos, dang they can look impressive.

In Ontario you can usually find rock bass along the shores. They are pretty aggressive and can look pretty cool with their red eyes...super hardy and easy to catch and keep, too. Small smallmouth bass or Northern pike are also super cool aquarium fish when they are small....abundant and with the slot limits Ontario has on both, its perfectly legal to keep very small ones.

What he said. Yeah, I figure I can expect the same inconsistencies in information no matter what hobby I get into, but at least from what I've seen and read about keeping Tarantulas, hybridization has been avoided aside from a small minority of hobbyists and breeders who feel the need to play mad scientist. And even the inconsistencies in info aren't that bad; when it comes to most of the important things, it seems like a lot of hobbyists agree. The Tarantula Keeper's Guide, for instance, is generally accepted as one of the best resources for new owners - at least here in Canada. I don't know if it's different elsewhere.

 

[dementedlullaby]

It actually is quite different, at least with regards to the suspect breeding (not the inconsistent info), unlike t's and herps, hybrid fish are almost always sterile, so it ends with them instead of diluting a captive bred species.

That's not always true. Parrot fish for example are capable on having offspring. Some are sterile but not every single one out of the clutch is. If parrot fish are capable of producing offspring I can't imagine they are the only ones .

IMO fish breeders seem a lot more unscrupulous. They don't care about anything except the bills (or pennies as is the case depending on import country). I've been in the fish hobby (like really involved, not just fleeting interest) for over 10 years now. Every time I see someone with a goldfish in a bowl I die a little on the inside.

 

[LythSalicaria]

That's not always true. Parrot fish for example are capable on having offspring. Some are sterile but not every single one out of the clutch is. If parrot fish are capable of producing offspring I can't imagine they are the only ones .

IMO fish breeders seem a lot more unscrupulous. They don't care about anything except the bills (or pennies as is the case depending on import country). I've been in the fish hobby (like really involved, not just fleeting interest) for over 10 years now. Every time I see someone with a goldfish in a bowl I die a little on the inside.

Yup, this. Heck, even when I see a bunch of gold fish crammed into a 10 gallon tank I get a little ragey. It demonstrates the ignorance of the fishkeeper. These days it takes about ten whole minutes of reading to learn the basics of taking care of goldfish. If you can't be arsed to do any research beyond what the pet store clerk tells you, do the rest of us a favor and get a pet cactus instead.

P.S. dementedlullaby - On the subject of puffers: I feel your pain on that one. Got myself a green spotted puffer fish a couple of years ago - adorable fish, but yeah, the fact that they're almost always caught in the wild made me feel pretty crummy. I named it Steven Harper (y'know, cause he's full of hot air? :biggrin. Mine did not adjust well to life in a fish tank. It decided to stop eating one day and no matter what I tried to get it to perk up, nothing worked. It ended up dying while someone was fishsitting for me.

Snark - Don't think I haven't considered it. :laugh:

 

[cold blood]

Haha, that's why I said ALMOST always, and not just always. Almost was the operative word in that sentence. When they are fertile, its GENERALLY only a very small percentage of the offspring. Hybridization is often used as a tool in fisheries, because fertility is never enough to actually maintain the species. I've never heard of a hybrid species, suddenly becoming even remotely self sustaining.

White bass/striped bass hybrids are a perfect example of a commonly bred and stocked "manmade" fish. Originally bred for fish farms, as the resulting "wipers" grow exceedingly fast, making them prime for farming, also they turned out to be much more powerful fish on the end of a line, making them also prime for being stocked for sport fishing, which they are...often heavily in many southern impoundments. A few of these do indeed turn out to be fertile, but its at such a low percentage that the end result is never a self sustaining wiper. Stop stocking them and they are gone in about a decade. This species are group spawners, with massive numbers congregating during the spawn.

Tiger musky are another, although stocked purely for sport, never result in self sustaining populations.

I'm sure somewhere there's an exception to the rule, there usually is...but it would be very rare.

 

[dementedlullaby]

P.S. dementedlullaby - On the subject of puffers: I feel your pain on that one. Got myself a green spotted puffer fish a couple of years ago - adorable fish, but yeah, the fact that they're almost always caught in the wild made me feel pretty crummy. I named it Steven Harper (y'know, cause he's full of hot air? :biggrin. Mine did not adjust well to life in a fish tank. It decided to stop eating one day and no matter what I tried to get it to perk up, nothing worked. It ended up dying while someone was fishsitting for me.

Sorry to hear yours didn't adjust. When I bought mine she was tearing around the tank with a half eaten bumble bee catfish (poor thing) which is why I chose her. She's always been a voracious eater. I feed her thawed shrimp and a few other things for variety sometimes but she has actually been eating the normal sinking shrimp pellets for years now. Such a cool fish. I hear that some people have made advances in breeding them so maybe in another half decade we can finally have captive bred ones. Puffers are my favorite type of fish hands down. Oh and I love the name, you made me actually laugh with that one .

Haha, that's why I said ALMOST always, and not just always. Almost was the operative word in that sentence. When they are fertile, its GENERALLY only a very small percentage of the offspring. Hybridization is often used as a tool in fisheries, because fertility is never enough to actually maintain the species. I've never heard of a hybrid species, suddenly becoming even remotely self sustaining.

My bad I probably skimmed over that sorry man . Though it seems to me from people I've met in the hobby it does happen more frequently than you would expect. Without proper studies it's hard to say either way of course. And I have absolutely no interest in hybridization of tropical fish so I'll just steer clear of that rofl.

Thanks for the rest of that info. I've obviously been more interested in the aquaculture for tropical side of fish keeping and how fish of all species behave in nature. but love hearing about fish farms marked for sporting as well. Always interesting.

 

[Cooper]

I have three burbot. They're more work than my other animals except perhaps tadpoles, but they are completely fascinating to watch.

 

[vespers]

It actually is quite different, at least with regards to the suspect breeding (not the inconsistent info), unlike t's and herps, hybrid fish are almost always sterile, so it ends with them instead of diluting a captive bred species.

My comment was in regards to the inconsistent info. Many of the people seeking care info online are often new to their respective hobby, and most probably aren't looking for breeding information right away. The experienced keepers on forums have their own ways of doing things they've been doing for years, which often differs in some way from what the next person has been doing for years. And each feels their way is more correct, because its worked for them in particular. Each throws out their own "brand" of advice. Then the newcomer has to sort through the noise, sift things down to the basics, extract those, and go from there. Some of the reptile "experts" are possibly the worst, some of those folks constantly argue amongst themselves like children. :laugh:

 

[cold blood]

I have three burbot. They're more work than my other animals except perhaps tadpoles, but they are completely fascinating to watch.

Holy cool fish cooper! I love them, partly because they are almost always misidentified when caught, at least they are here in WI. What do you do to keep your eel pout's water cool? How big are they? I'd love to get a look at that set up, got any pics? Impressed I am

Truly a fascinating fish that you rarely, if ever, see in personal aquariums.

 

[Entomancer]

Well, the other thing about fishkeeping is that the approach you take to learning about and caring for your fish can have a big impact on your successes and problems.

To this date I have only had one "major problem" with fish I have purchased, and I keep Parosphronemus, Indostomus, and other sensitive species. After some introspective thinking I realized that I underestimated the sensitivity of the fish I was trying to care for (Parotocinclus "britskii").

If you want good information about the fish you wish to keep, you need to stay away from forums and comments and "yahoo answers" type sites. The best websites and other resources I have found for fishkeeping are seriouslyfish.com, fishbase, and the Aquarium Atlas books. Seriously Fish has some of the best info around for different species, and the admins are always adding more species profiles and information. Fishbase is useful for more general information for obscure and poorly-known species, plus it's great if you want to know the natural distribution of a given species.

You should also pay more attention to the region your fish come from before you start mixing things together. No matter what, fish from the same general region will coexist better than fish from halfway across the world from each other. Some quick examples of this are:

Central America: Livebearers, dwarf cichlids, tetras.

South America: Dwarf cichlids (rams, Apistogramma sp.), hatchetfish, tetras, Loricarid catfish, pencil fish.

West African Rainforest: Dwarf cichlids (Kribensis, etc.), barbs, killies, tetras (Neolebias, Nannocharax, Alestopetersius)

African Rift Lake: Cichlids (you need to pick the right species from which lake you want to focus on), Tanganyika killies, Afromastacembelus "eels"

Australia/Oceania: Rainbowfish, blue-eyes, ricefish, glassfish, gobies, halfjaws.

SE Asia Blackwater Swamp: Parosphronemus, Indostomus, Boraras rasboras, Mystus catfish, Brachygobius xanthomelas, bettas, small gouramis (noble, snakeskin, kissing gouramis, and trichogaster ssp. all get 6+ inches), certain danios would work too.

SE Asia Blackwater Stream: Small gouramis, small rasbora, Mystus catfish (small bagrids), betta, danios, barbs.

Asian "Hillstream": Loaches, gobies, perhaps some of the barbs/danios that prefer a current.

Indian stream: Badis, barbs, gourami, catfish, loaches; similar to SE Asia stream fish with a few endemics.

Those assemblies of fish have coexisted for millenia and will probably do so in your tank, as well. Angelfish are really tough to do in a community tank unless it is very large and you have 1 or fewer pairs, and you will lose your smaller fish if you have any (tetras, small pencilfish, etc.). Angels really need like 60 gallons and above in order to thrive, unless you have a breeding pair alone in a 30 gallon (which is the size most often used for such endeavors).

 

[xirxes]

As an avid fish keeper and marine ecologist by trade, I understand your frustrations.

For the concerns with the fish availability, you simply need a good source for your fish. In San Diego we are lucky to be flush with them, but get in touch with your closest Tropical fish society/enthusiasts to get the pure lines.

As far as communities of fish go, it is best to get your research from field material like Axlrod's old stuff to create a very specific collection of naturally occurring species, as noted in the biomes listed above, coupled with the right heat, water chemistry and lighting and you are off to the races.

After years of keeping so many different species, I currently keep a large koi pond in the yard and a 240 gallon planted South American hybrid community tank that is literally self managing.

100 cardinal tetras, 40 rummy nose tetras, 20 panda cories, 20 black neons, 40-100 kribensis(breed nonstop, population changes), 2x 8yr old clown loaches, 4x bushy nose tetras.

It's all about the ecosystem and niches of the fish.

If you do a species spotlight in the tank, then research all of the cohabitant tank mates, things will turn out fine with patience.

P.S. Those that may not have kept fish, Tarantulas are a breath of fresh air and even the most elaborate housing and care is just simplicity itself compared to fine management of an aquatic ecosystem, especially the reef.

 

[LythSalicaria]

P.S. Those that may not have kept fish, Tarantulas are a breath of fresh air and even the most elaborate housing and care is just simplicity itself compared to fine management of an aquatic ecosystem, especially the reef.

Couldn't agree more. For the first month or so of owning my first T I was without a doubt guilty of being a hover-owner just because I'd been conditioned by so much time hovering around my aquariums worrying about water quality, temperature, whether I was feeding enough or too much, blah blah blah...thankfully, while T care sheets are sketchy, the advice and experience of other hobbyists seems to be pretty much good across the board. Within no time I had my urge to fuss curbed, and my G. rosea on the right substrate at the right moisture level.

Thanks to everyone who has offered tips on improving my Aquarium, but I'm thinking that I'm going to be converting it into a terrarium in the near future. I was thinking about leaving Bonny and Clyde in the aquarium alone so they could breed, but I don't even want to think about dealing with all the babies. I had some fun with fishkeeping on and off for many years, and I imagine somewhere down the line I'll set up another tank but for now it's time to take a break.

...also, I keep looking that big 45 gallon and thinking how well it would work as a double enclosure for my bird eaters when they reach adulthood. :8o :8o

Stick a solid divider in the middle, find or make a nice metal mesh lid with two openings, then bada boom bada bing - two 20 gal. enclosures.

 

[xirxes]

Couldn't agree more. For the first month or so of owning my first T I was without a doubt guilty of being a hover-owner just because I'd been conditioned by so much time hovering around my aquariums worrying about water quality, temperature, whether I was feeding enough or too much, blah blah blah...thankfully, while T care sheets are sketchy, the advice and experience of other hobbyists seems to be pretty much good across the board. Within no time I had my urge to fuss curbed, and my G. rosea on the right substrate at the right moisture level.

Thanks to everyone who has offered tips on improving my Aquarium, but I'm thinking that I'm going to be converting it into a terrarium in the near future. I was thinking about leaving Bonny and Clyde in the aquarium alone so they could breed, but I don't even want to think about dealing with all the babies. I had some fun with fishkeeping on and off for many years, and I imagine somewhere down the line I'll set up another tank but for now it's time to take a break.

...also, I keep looking that big 45 gallon and thinking how well it would work as a double enclosure for my bird eaters when they reach adulthood. :8o :8o

Stick a solid divider in the middle, find or make a nice metal mesh lid with two openings, then bada boom bada bing - two 20 gal. enclosures.

BIGGEST NO POSSiBLE on split tank. Search it on here, SO MANY sad stories of crawl-overs/unders and cannibalism,death, destruction, tears, lamentation and the gnashing of teeth. DONT DO IT!

Sell it and get two good separates for the love of all things holy.