Poecilotheria Venom Vs. True Spider Venom ( black widow, brown recluse)

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

Hello all, I realize that there is likely no definite answer to my question and that this will likely be a highly controversial topic but I thought to make a post to gather up as much info as possible. How does the venom of the poecilotheria genus stack up against that of say a black widow or a brown recluse? Pain wise? Side effects? My step sister was bitten by a black widow several years back and once described her experience as extreme pain throughout her entire body, body wide muscle spasms, and flu like symptoms. Obviously the widow takes the lead as far as venom potency goes but I am particularly interested In a comparison of the symptoms (pain, flu like symptoms, labored breathing, muscle spasms, heart palpitations). How long does the venom of each sp. take to take effect on the body? How long do the effects last? Obviously these are two different types of venoms and everyone reacts to envenomation differently so I am not expecting black and white answers so much as general information. Also I have seen heart palpitations listed as side effects in various bite reports of OW T's. Does an actual irregular heart beat ever occur as a symptom of OW bites or just palpitations? And one more unrelated question: Which poecilotheria sp. is known to have the most potent venom?

Thanks in Advance to Everyone Who Posts

 

[Storm76]

Hello all, I realize that there is likely no definite answer to my question and that this will likely be a highly controversial topic but I thought to make a post to gather up as much info as possible. How does the venom of the poecilotheria genus stack up against that of say a black widow or a brown recluse? Pain wise? Side effects? My step sister was bitten by a black widow several years back and once described her experience as extreme pain throughout her entire body, body wide muscle spasms, and flu like symptoms. Obviously the widow takes the lead as far as venom potency goes but I am particularly interested In a comparison of the symptoms (pain, flu like symptoms, labored breathing, muscle spasms, heart palpitations). How long does the venom of each sp. take to take effect on the body? How long do the effects last? Obviously these are two different types of venoms and everyone reacts to envenomation differently so I am not expecting black and white answers so much as general information. Also I have seen heart palpitations listed as side effects in various bite reports of OW T's. Does an actual irregular heart beat ever occur as a symptom of OW bites or just palpitations? And one more unrelated question: Which poecilotheria sp. is known to have the most potent venom?

Thanks in Advance to Everyone Who Posts

* I think most potent (if there is such a thing, since they all are!) is said to be P. ornata.

* Yes, irregular heartbeat has been reported for multiple OW species bites (C. fimbriatus being another for example, not suprising as they range in the same league as Poecies - for some reason people are luckily more careful with those apparently since I see less bite-reps about them)

* Tarantula venom doesn't have components causing necrosis within it - to my knowledge there is an amount of that stuff in both true-spider venoms you asked for. On the same note, to my knowledge, the reportedly always occuring necrosis after Brown-Recluse bites is a myth.

* Venom effect on humans varies greatly! Factor such as size of spider, venom amount injected, health of person bitten, age, general fitness, and many more things have to be considered. There's no way you can go and say "Oh, it'll be gone in a couple days". There's a chance it'll take a long time to stop bothering you if oyu get bitten by a potent tarantula and on for the sake of the question there's also the thing that these symptoms have reported to reappear a year later suddenly without having been bitten. There's simply no telling since we don't know enough about them - yet. Maybe in time. About the only thing you can be sure of, is that an OW bite is way worse than one from a NW species - that I guess we can all agree with. Granted - never been bitten and neither planning to.

 

[Angel Minkov]

I wouldnt say P. ornata is the most potent. The site you linked with several bites is a good example of Lampropelma nigerrimum. Also, from the reports Ive read, P. subfusca is nastier.

 

[louise f]

Here is a link i would like to share

https://youtu.be/e8VkCcJd2NM

 

[lalberts9310]

I wouldnt say P. ornata is the most potent. The site you linked with several bites is a good example of Lampropelma nigerrimum. Also, from the reports Ive read, P. subfusca is nastier.

I also heard L. Nigerrimum can pack one nasty punch

 

[Angel Minkov]

Nasty is an understatement. Find Storm's recent thread and give it a read.

 

[lalberts9310]

Yeah I read that thread

 

[Angel Minkov]

It made me want a L. nigerrimum. I think I will get some soon.

 

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

I am about to buy a 4 inch ornata....so I am a bit on the nervous side. This would be my first poeci past the 2 inch mark. Getting bitten is simply not an option for me when dealing with poecis or any OW for that matter. I exercise extreme caution when dealing with all of my OWs but I've got to say the bite reports on this sp are frightening. Also a few more questions: I am fairly skinny 6'0 148 lbs body fat under 10% would that likely effect the effect of the venom on my body? Could a bite from a poeci actually put someone in a coma?

 

[lalberts9310]

I am about to buy a 4 inch ornata....so I am a bit on the nervous side. This would be my first poeci past the 2 inch mark. Getting bitten is simply not an option for me when dealing with poecis or any OW for that matter. I exercise extreme caution when dealing with all of my OWs but I've got to say the bite reports on this sp are frightening. Also a few more questions: I am fairly skinny 6'0 148 lbs body fat under 10% would that likely effect the effect of the venom on my body? Could a bite from a poeci actually put someone in a coma?

What I heard is the most common reason why you run the risk of ending up in a coma due to a T bite (in this instance a poeci) is if you experience severe fever.. well what I've heard, so if I'm wrong, anyone can correct me though

 

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

What I heard is the most common reason why you run the risk of ending up in a coma due to a T bite (in this instance a poeci) is if you experience severe fever.. well what I've heard, so if I'm wrong, anyone can correct me though

That's what I was thinking but I wasn't sure. I feel that any rational person who has suffered a bite this bad would have been in the hospital long before a fever capable of putting someone into a coma occurs.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

* Tarantula venom doesn't have components causing necrosis within it - to my knowledge there is an amount of that stuff in both true-spider venoms you asked for. On the same note, to my knowledge, the reportedly always occuring necrosis after Brown-Recluse bites is a myth.

Indeed, true. Not always a bite from Loxosceles rufescens (i talk about our local, mediterranean Sicariidae sp. who lives here in the whole nation, from north to south) will end with necrosis, or sort of, but when the loxoscelism arrive... arrive. And it's a nightmare.
Just last year, in summer time, a normal healthy man who was playing with his little kids in the garden, got bitten by one of those, while collecting up his children's toys from the green.
Ended with his finger lost, due to amputation (for save his hand, eh). This operation happened in a very famous hospital near Milano (Milan) were Doctors cure "Serie A" football players legs, for instance, and people like them, among the others patients, so pro docs. They said on press that not always occur Loxoscelism after a bite, but when, it's a.. gambling.

 

[awiec]

Pretty much Storm put any points I was going to make in pretty little bullet points.

Thing is Lactrodectus (Widows) for the most part have neurotoxic venom, if properly envenomated you're going to get intense muscle spasms and possibly permanent damage of tissue depending on where you're bit (one member here has a weird skin growth develop after being bit). Anti-venom is common enough to where you can get treated at the hospital and most healthy adults won't die from a bite even if they don't seek treatment (just be in a lot of pain).

Loxosceles is very unique in that somewhere down the line they were able to obtain material from "flesh eating" bacteria or necrotic bacteria and incorporate it into their venom and are one of the only genus who have this trait. Once again it all depends on if you're envenomated, a lot of bites end up with some painful swelling and is taken care of by the body. You will want to go get treatment anyway as the cocktail of drugs given should prevent any major necrosis from happening along with some tissue removal in some cases. Still rare for people to die from a bite and many suspected recluse bites are mis-diagnosised by doctors as there are several bacteria that cause the flesh necrosis recluse is "famous" for.

Now onto the Pokies. We unfortunately don't know much about how they operate venom wise, in theory they could pump way more venom into you than a widow or recluse ever could but you aren't going to die. A lot of symptoms associated with a tarantula bite seem to be similar to true spiders with neurotoxic venom; intense cramping, burning, vomiting, and heart palpitations or difficulty breathing in some cases (need to go to the ER if you have the last two happen). Despite these effects most people just wait the venom out and even go to work while in a lot of pain; though there isn't really a choice since anti-venom is not available. While pokies are probably some of the biggest OW out there, quite a few reports regarding the Aussie T's are suggesting a more short tempered and potent animal. This causes the plot to thicken, what is so special about the Aussie T's where they have a 100% fality rate on dogs? OBT venom can't even manage to kill a cat so there is something interesting and novel about the Aussies.

As for you and how you will react to the venom, well we can't answer that, everyone is different and really the only sure thing I can say is that children and the elderly don't mix with OW just because of their bodies being weaker compared to an average adult. Pokies are probably one of the more calm Asian OW as they prefer to hide and stay still and aren't really going to move unless they're scared (of course I have a nasty P.metallica specimen that throws all that advice out the window) but in general calm and slow movements will keep the spider from running around. I personally wait until my pokies are in pre-molt before I move them, it slows them down just enough to make it easier on me. Of course if you are very intimidated by the spider, rehoming is an option and would be good for you and the spider if you are worried about caring for it.

 

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

It's not my ability to care for the spider and my ability to take great care to avoid being bitten that makes me anxious. It's that tiny chance that I could be bitten at some point and the effects of that bite that scare me. So which would be more painful on average an adult female P. Ornata bite or a black widow bite? If I do get this T I plan to house it in one of my modified ten gallon with a plexiglass lid that I have made ( similar to what robc uses) so it will not require a rehouse for the rest of its life. Though I am nervous, as anyone should be, about being bitten, I have no problem rehousing the T as I have dealt with much faster and more agressive T's in the past and been just fine. It's only the venom potency that scares me.

 

[TownesVanZandt]

ArachnoSmack: are you really sure that getting this T is the right thing for you? IMO, keeping an animal that you are highly anxious about is generally a bad idea and adds to the risk of both yourself and the animal in question. Even though you normally may have no problem to cope with faster Ts, you might act differently around one that you are afraid of. Just think it through before you get it, that´s all

 

[Poec54]

It's not my ability to care for the spider and my ability to take great care to avoid being bitten that makes me anxious. It's that tiny chance that I could be bitten at some point and the effects of that bite that scare me. So which would be more painful on average an adult female P. Ornata bite or a black widow bite? If I do get this T I plan to house it in one of my modified ten gallon with a plexiglass lid that I have made ( similar to what robc uses) so it will not require a rehouse for the rest of its life. Though I am nervous, as anyone should be, about being bitten, I have no problem rehousing the T as I have dealt with much faster and more agressive T's in the past and been just fine. It's only the venom potency that scares me.

You're pretty apprehensive; it doesn't sound like a genus you should own. Some people are comfortable working with OW's, others aren't. You shouldn't own spiders you're afraid of.

 

[Angel Minkov]

Being anxious is perfectly fine. Being complacent is a very bad thing. We cannot tell you how you're going to react to the venom. It depends on your leucocytes and immune system iirc.

 

[awiec]

You're pretty apprehensive; it doesn't sound like a genus you should own. Some people are comfortable working with OW's, others aren't. You shouldn't own spiders you're afraid of.

This hobby is supposed to be fun, not cause anxiety. Sure it's okay to be a tad nervous and these animals demand respect but the way the OP is talking about the spider just doesn't feel right. I got rid of a few spiders because they just weren't fun for me anymore (the fact they were males was besides the point) and traded them for species I enjoy much more. I hopped into OW faster than some people but I'm always pretty relaxed when working with them and don't have thoughts "oh no I have to clean the pokie cage" or "how in the world am I going to re-house this?" those can be signs showing that one isn't entirely comfortable with the animal. Of course I hope we answered the OP's question and they will use the info to made an educated decision.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

So which would be more painful on average an adult female P. Ornata bite or a black widow bite?

I don't know. Both are a "painful badass bite" spiders, unlike Loxosceles rufescens who can be a nightmare for the necrotic effects (not always can happen, however) but the bite itself is the usual burning sensation, swelling. Nothing special.
Poecilotheria sp. and Latrodectus mactans don't. They can make a grow, healthy strong man, cry.
Now, while Poecilotheria sp. didn't kill no one so far from what we know, Latrodectus mactans keep in mind we must see them as "potentially deadly venom" spiders, even if someone will not agree with me.
There's the antidote (or antivenom, sorry for my English) yes, but from what i know, ready available only in USA American continent.
Sometime i think if a "whoops" happens in some European nations where they have not available for time the antidote, what would can happen? They are not so lethal like Atrax robustus ? Yes. Not always 100% deadly? Maybe but still.
I think the pain will be something unbearable if a complete wet bite is given from those two sp. however.
Just my two cents.. a Poecilotheria sp. bite would comfort me a little than a Latrodectus mactans one. If there's an antidote, means bad news can happens.
There isn't the need for a Grammostola rosea antidote, after all.

 

[ARACHNO-SMACK48]

ArachnoSmack: are you really sure that getting this T is the right thing for you? IMO, keeping an animal that you are highly anxious about is generally a bad idea and adds to the risk of both yourself and the animal in question. Even though you normally may have no problem to cope with faster Ts, you might act differently around one that you are afraid of. Just think it through before you get it, that´s all

I think that to an extent you are right. However, I am confident in my ability to remain calm, collected, and careful when dealing with OW T's and I am by no means what I would consider a beginner in dealing with fast and agressive T's, however I do not have much experience in keeping larger poecis or and I do not currently own any full grown adult OW's just slings and some decent sized juvies. This T would be no exception. I am not scared to the extent that it would impair my ability to work with the T. I have absolutely no problem rehousing, doing cage maintenance, unpacking, packing, OW T's. I am just saying that I wouldn't want to get tagged by an AF ornata like Robc...