Phrynichus orientalis questions

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Hoping some of the amblypygid masters will check this thread out...

I've been interested in amblypygids since pretty much ever since I found out they existed, but for various reasons I've not tried to keep them on all but two occasions while living in Canada, where they are far more commonly available. Since then I've moved back to Korea and found them to be basically nonexistent in the trade here, where they only occasionally come in as poorly labelled WC imports (there used to be one private breeder, but his efforts largely failed, with the exception of a Damon diadema colony that someone allegedly inherited from him and is keeping privately).

But recently, the local T and scorpion breeder (who I have done plenty of business with in the past) brought in a big SEA (Malaysian, IIRC) shipment, including a number of amblypygids (of at least three different species) and uropygi. I've ID'd most of the former as being Phrynichus orientalis, since there really isn't any other ambly in SEA that has the long, largely spineless, prehensile pedipalps of that species. I spent around three weeks deliberating on the decision, but ultimately I decided to go for it, since it might be years before another amblypygid import comes in. Because I live fairly close to the shop, I was able to go there and pick out a male and a female myself (using the red ventral hair sexing technique) and even teach the breeder a few things about amblypygid care and ID (knowledge on ambly care being almost nonexistent here)

So right now I have a confirmed pair of Phrynichus orientalis; neither is in the best shape (they're both missing a whip and a walking leg each), but they're fully mobile and feeding well (both of them ate very eagerly on the day I got them). They're still far from full-grown (some of the big adults from the same import were noticeably larger), but they're obviously sexually mature, and the hope is that I'd eventually be able to pair them and get this species established in the Korean hobby.

Now, I've read up on amblypygid care on this forum just in case an opportunity like this came along, so I do have the basic information down (critical importance of humidity and damp substrate, need for sufficient vertical space during molting, use of materials such as styrofoam as corkbark replacement, etc). But there are some things I haven't really found the answers for.

- Should I get another breeding pair to be on the safe side in case the pair I already have isn't compatible (and to ensure more genetic diversity if I do manage to breed them)? Or at least another female to pair the male with if the current female wants nothing to do with him?

- I know that Phrynichus in general are among the largest amblypygids, but exactly how big does P. orientalis get? I've looked for this information online and haven't found much. And related to this, how big (and, in particular, how tall) should the enclosure be? Right now I have the male in a tall (over 20cm) plastic cup with waterlogged substrate and a piece of corkbark leaned against the wall, and the female in a 20x20x30 ExoTerra with a huge cork half round and very damp substrate (incidentally, this was Anihan's enclosure before her untimely passing, and the female P. orientalis has made her old, vertically-oriented lair her own). But these are both intended to be temporary housing-the plan is to move the amblypygids into enclosures specifically set up to house them, and then move one of my two Ornithoctoninae sp. "Phan Cay Blue" to the vacant ExoTerra (the other has already been rehoused to another ExoTerra and is thriving)

- I've heard from this forum that sexually matured Phrynichus can be housed in pairs long-term for breeding, but I know this comes with risks of cannibalism and stress, especially in smaller enclosures. Would you say yes or no to housing them together? I'm personally leaning towards "no" and am willing to set up two enclosures if I must, but I do have issues with space being at a premium, so being able to keep both specimens in one enclosure would be a definite bonus.

- Last question, and this is something I really should have thought about before putting an amblypygid in the biggest unused enclosure I had; how exactly do I get an amblypygid out of an ExoTerra with a big, fixed piece of cork half round for her to hide behind without stressing her out excessively, removing more of her appendages, or having to tear up the entire setup? Because I have my doubts about whether the female P. orientalis would ever willingly venture out from behind that bit of cover (the only reason I know she's still in that enclosure is because her remaining whip will come up and scan the enclosure for prey, while she herself stays out of sight).

 

[Sarkhan42]

Always great to hear someone getting into breeding amblypygi!

I would always recommend getting multiple pairs for WC animals. With WC you get so much variety in health and fecundity it’s the safest to cover your bases, and the extra genetic diversity is nice.

As for max size, this species gets large but I’d estimate that they likely don’t exceed 5-6” legspan. The biggest concern is enough room to properly molt the extended pedipalps IMO. I wouldn’t keep them long term in something smaller than twice their legspan high for molting, just to be safe about the room they need.

While you can keep pairs together for many species, I always recommend against it due to the risk. Even after months together they can cannibalize during molting especially. I usually just supervise successful pairing and then remove after I see the female take the spermatophore.

As for getting her out of there… it’ll take some patience. Just take it slow, and have some long but soft tools on hand to try and gently guide her out of the cork round. With enough persistence she’ll leave.

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Thanks for the response.

I would always recommend getting multiple pairs for WC animals.

Looks like I'm going to have to grab some more before they're sold out/die in the shop. Last time I checked with the breeder (which was when I was picking up my current pair), he had a lot of females, but only one other definite male (that was already reserved to be shipped off to someone else...hopefully with a female), plus an immature individual too young to be sexed. I could easily get another female but might not be able to get a male, unless I get that immature and it turns out to be male after one or two molts.

As for max size, this species gets large but I’d estimate that they likely don’t exceed 5-6” legspan. The biggest concern is enough room to properly molt the extended pedipalps IMO.

Yeah that's the big concern for me as well. You said the height should be, at minimum, double their legspan (so that would be around 12"/30cm); I can provide that, but I'm not sure if even that would be enough vertical room for the pedipalps with this species, especially if one of them decides to molt well below the top of the enclosure.

As for getting her out of there… it’ll take some patience. Just take it slow, and have some long but soft tools on hand to try and gently guide her out of the cork round. With enough persistence she’ll leave.

Would a thin, pliable piece of wire qualify as a long but soft tool? Back before Anihan's demise (when the ExoTerra in question was dedicated to her), she'd constructed a lair with two entrances that runs almost the entire vertical height of the setup, and now that the amblypygid has taken that lair over she has a huge amount of vertical room to escape into, not to mention that the deepest parts of the lair are hard to see into even with lighting and curves out of view to an extent. I do have a long, bent set of tongs but I feel a wire would have better reach and be less likely to injure an arthropod.

Edit: I just had her come out from her cover for about a minute to grab a cricket that hadn't taken refuge on her side of the cork half round. Perhaps luring her out with a prey item could work?

 

[Sarkhan42]

Thanks for the response.



Looks like I'm going to have to grab some more before they're sold out/die in the shop. Last time I checked with the breeder (which was when I was picking up my current pair), he had a lot of females, but only one other definite male (that was already reserved to be shipped off to someone else...hopefully with a female), plus an immature individual too young to be sexed. I could easily get another female but might not be able to get a male, unless I get that immature and it turns out to be male after one or two molts.



Yeah that's the big concern for me as well. You said the height should be, at minimum, double their legspan (so that would be around 12"/30cm); I can provide that, but I'm not sure if even that would be enough vertical room for the pedipalps with this species, especially if one of them decides to molt well below the top of the enclosure.



Would a thin, pliable piece of wire qualify as a long but soft tool? Back before Anihan's demise (when the ExoTerra in question was dedicated to her), she'd constructed a lair with two entrances that runs almost the entire vertical height of the setup, and now that the amblypygid has taken that lair over she has a huge amount of vertical room to escape into, not to mention that the deepest parts of the lair are hard to see into even with lighting and curves out of view to an extent. I do have a long, bent set of tongs but I feel a wire would have better reach and be less likely to injure an arthropod.

Edit: I just had her come out from her cover for about a minute to grab a cricket that hadn't taken refuge on her side of the cork half round. Perhaps luring her out with a prey item could work?

I think a wire could work just fine, as long as you're slow and careful. Unfortunately amblypygi are very in tune with prey movement, so its very difficult to lure them out with food without them detecting something abnormal.

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

I think a wire could work just fine, as long as you're slow and careful. Unfortunately amblypygi are very in tune with prey movement, so its very difficult to lure them out with food without them detecting something abnormal.

Thanks.

The big issue I have right now is finding appropriate housing. It's quite easy for me to get my hands on 12" high enclosures (going by the rule of "enclosure height must bet 2x the legspan of an adult"), but adding substrate (for moisture retention) would likely reduce this to around 10"-11", which I fear is a bit too low to ensure enough vertical room once my amblys get bigger, especially with how long the pedipalps of this species can be. I currently lack the space for a 18" high enclosure (which are also pretty easily available), and while I could easily accommodate a 14" high enclosure, those simply don't exist in Korea outside of custom builds. Not to mention that most existing enclosures in Korea are designed for arboreal herps or for arboreal Ts, meaning they have a lot of vents (good for keeping, say, avics, not good for amblypygids) and have excessive depth to them (when amblys really only need a lot of height and horizontal space) meaning the amblypygids will only feel secure if a lot of decor is added for cover (which would also cause issues with molting space and such.

Unfortunately all the cereal containers I can find in Korea are not high enough (less than 12") to provide sufficient vertical room, so getting some of those and modifying them into amblypygid enclosures is off the table. I'm actually researching custom build options at the moment to get around these issues.

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

Thanks.

The big issue I have right now is finding appropriate housing. It's quite easy for me to get my hands on 12" high enclosures (going by the rule of "enclosure height must bet 2x the legspan of an adult"), but adding substrate (for moisture retention) would likely reduce this to around 10"-11", which I fear is a bit too low to ensure enough vertical room once my amblys get bigger, especially with how long the pedipalps of this species can be. I currently lack the space for a 18" high enclosure (which are also pretty easily available), and while I could easily accommodate a 14" high enclosure, those simply don't exist in Korea outside of custom builds. Not to mention that most existing enclosures in Korea are designed for arboreal herps or for arboreal Ts, meaning they have a lot of vents (good for keeping, say, avics, not good for amblypygids) and have excessive depth to them (when amblys really only need a lot of height and horizontal space) meaning the amblypygids will only feel secure if a lot of decor is added for cover (which would also cause issues with molting space and such.

Unfortunately all the cereal containers I can find in Korea are not high enough (less than 12") to provide sufficient vertical room, so getting some of those and modifying them into amblypygid enclosures is off the table. I'm actually researching custom build options at the moment to get around these issues.

the substrate doesn’t need to be all flat on the bottom. You can have it shallower in the middle and deeper around the sides. You also don’t need to have a huge amount of substrate if you are consistent about checking moisture levels.

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

the substrate doesn’t need to be all flat on the bottom. You can have it shallower in the middle and deeper around the sides.

Thanks-that wouldn't use up quite as much of the vertical height. I just want to make sure I'm not going to be creating a death trap of an enclosure.

You also don’t need to have a huge amount of substrate if you are consistent about checking moisture levels.

The big issue is that, outside of ExoTerras, all the available enclosures of reasonable size and height were designed for arboreal Ts (especially avics) or arboreal herps (especially crested geckos), so they contain numerous vents on the sides, on the front, on top and even at the back. So there's going to be a significant amount of ventilation happening, which I feel might lower moisture levels rapidly and lead to more frequent maintenance/spraying (which would stress out the inhabitant).

Edit: I actually have access to something called art soil (it's a vivarium product, you can mould it into structures and use it to cover the back and/or sides of a tank so plants can grow on it), and while I don't plan to have any plants in my amblypygid enclosures I plan on making extensive use of art soil to mimic the smooth, vertical environments that amblypygids most often live on in the wild, using the stuff to cover up the back and at least one of the two sides, maybe even the top of the enclosure as well. I might be able to cover up some of the vents while doing this to reduce ventilation (something I never thought I'd be doing for any arachnid especially given how much of a no-no this is for Ts); does that sound feasible?

Another issue is that because these enclosures have a lot more depth to them instead of being tall, wide and flat, they're too roomy for an amblypygid to think of the enclosure itself as shelter (as with the usual modified cereal boxes used on this forum, which I am jealous of). So I'm going to have to include various vertical structures (Styrofoam, cork sheets, or art soil structures) to provide the amblypygid somewhere tight to take refuge in, but I am concerned that this is going to be another thing that cuts down on molting space. How would you arrange an amblypygid enclosure with a 8"x8" footprint in a way that prevents the decor from being knocked over while still allowing for the animal to both hide and molt without any issues? I've seen examples of amblypygid enclosures on this sub but these were either far narrower or were for smaller/smaller-palped species that wouldn't need as much room to molt.

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

Thanks-that wouldn't use up quite as much of the vertical height. I just want to make sure I'm not going to be creating a death trap of an enclosure.



The big issue is that, outside of ExoTerras, all the available enclosures of reasonable size and height were designed for arboreal Ts (especially avics) or arboreal herps (especially crested geckos), so they contain numerous vents on the sides, on the front, on top and even at the back. So there's going to be a significant amount of ventilation happening, which I feel might lower moisture levels rapidly and lead to more frequent maintenance/spraying (which would stress out the inhabitant).

Yes. You simply cover the extra vents. You can use aquarium silicone to adhere thin acrylic sheets (let it cure for a few days before adding animals), or strategically place your climbing surfaces such that they block them.

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Yes. You simply cover the extra vents. You can use aquarium silicone to adhere thin acrylic sheets (let it cure for a few days before adding animals), or strategically place your climbing surfaces such that they block them.

So a lot like what I was planning on doing with art soil. Thanks!

 

[Sarkhan42]

Thanks.

The big issue I have right now is finding appropriate housing. It's quite easy for me to get my hands on 12" high enclosures (going by the rule of "enclosure height must bet 2x the legspan of an adult"), but adding substrate (for moisture retention) would likely reduce this to around 10"-11", which I fear is a bit too low to ensure enough vertical room once my amblys get bigger, especially with how long the pedipalps of this species can be. I currently lack the space for a 18" high enclosure (which are also pretty easily available), and while I could easily accommodate a 14" high enclosure, those simply don't exist in Korea outside of custom builds. Not to mention that most existing enclosures in Korea are designed for arboreal herps or for arboreal Ts, meaning they have a lot of vents (good for keeping, say, avics, not good for amblypygids) and have excessive depth to them (when amblys really only need a lot of height and horizontal space) meaning the amblypygids will only feel secure if a lot of decor is added for cover (which would also cause issues with molting space and such.

Unfortunately all the cereal containers I can find in Korea are not high enough (less than 12") to provide sufficient vertical room, so getting some of those and modifying them into amblypygid enclosures is off the table. I'm actually researching custom build options at the moment to get around these issues.

Another cheap alternative to glass or plexi that is larger than cereal storage containers, are dog food storage containers. These come in huge sizes and work phenomenally, I actually keep some of my adult Acanthophrynus in them. I also find depth is good for the larger species to have sufficient space to molt, particular those with large palps like you'll be working with.

Additionally, amblypygi don't necessarily need narrow spaces or decor to feel secure. Many of my species grow and breed successfully in open minimalist enclosures, that allow me to properly ensure that they eat well and keep the enclosure clean.

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Another cheap alternative to glass or plexi that is larger than cereal storage containers, are dog food storage containers.

Will have to check those out then.

Additionally, amblypygi don't necessarily need narrow spaces or decor to feel secure.

Good to know.

I went tp the breeder today and picked up that unsexed juvenile (regardless of whether it turns out to be a male or a female it'll serve as a backup plan if my current pair refuse to mate). I actually managed to ID another male-female pair, but these were larger than the pair I've already picked up and thus out of my current budget. I did talk him into not selling away that pair so that this can be a joint breeding project.

Edit:

I also find depth is good for the larger species to have sufficient space to molt, particular those with large palps like you'll be working with

How much depth you mean here? The enclosures most easily available here have a 8" x 8" footprint; would that be enough?

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Went and checked and the available dog food storage containers are around the same size as (and often the exact same containers as) the available cereal storage containers. Looks like I'm just going to mod the acrylic enclosure that's coming tomorrow as best as I can.

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Okay, so the enclosure has been set up and the female has been moved into it (the male is still in his improvised enclosure but is feeding well; I plan to set up another enclosure for him in short order in a similar fashion)



The enclosure is 20cmx20cmx30cm (which I still feel is the bare minimum height-wise), with around an inch of thoroughly soaked substrate. Half the top ventilation has been blocked up by a tight-fitting cork flat that will double as a molting spot, and much of the ventilation on the left side has been cut off by a large piece of styrofoam that's held in place by art soil (the right side of the enclosure is against the wall of the cabinet so is naturally closed off anyways). Art soil has been applied on the entirety of the back wall and most of the left wall to provide climbing space + molting spots.

Right now the female P. orientalis is sitting behind that small piece of corkbark attached to the upper left back corner, though I feel she'll explore around and move to behind the bigger corkbark piece.

Do you see any significant long-term issues with this enclosure? I do think vertical molting space and the overall "roominess" might still be issues.

 

[Sarkhan42]

Okay, so the enclosure has been set up and the female has been moved into it (the male is still in his improvised enclosure but is feeding well; I plan to set up another enclosure for him in short order in a similar fashion)

View attachment 452614

The enclosure is 20cmx20cmx30cm (which I still feel is the bare minimum height-wise), with around an inch of thoroughly soaked substrate. Half the top ventilation has been blocked up by a tight-fitting cork flat that will double as a molting spot, and much of the ventilation on the left side has been cut off by a large piece of styrofoam that's held in place by art soil (the right side of the enclosure is against the wall of the cabinet so is naturally closed off anyways). Art soil has been applied on the entirety of the back wall and most of the left wall to provide climbing space + molting spots.

Right now the female P. orientalis is sitting behind that small piece of corkbark attached to the upper left back corner, though I feel she'll explore around and move to behind the bigger corkbark piece.

Do you see any significant long-term issues with this enclosure? I do think vertical molting space and the overall "roominess" might still be issues.

Honestly its really hard to tell what's going on in the enclosure, especially not getting to see it compared to the size of the animal, so its hard to give any good input.

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Honestly its really hard to tell what's going on in the enclosure, especially not getting to see it compared to the size of the animal, so its hard to give any good input.

Here's a picture I just took with the enclosure door open, hopefully this gives you a better view:



The ambly (the female that's been moved into the enclosure) is around 3.5"~4" legspan at the moment (minus the antenniform legs, or rather leg since she dropped one during shipping). She is still sitting behind that small piece of cork bark I've attached to the top left corner (she was partially visible until a few minutes ago, but crawled fully out of sight when I opened the enclosure to take this second picture). The enclosure is 12" high, though with the substrate and the cork flat at the top the actual height is more like 11".

 

[Sarkhan42]

Here's a picture I just took with the enclosure door open, hopefully this gives you a better view:

View attachment 452674

The ambly (the female that's been moved into the enclosure) is around 3.5"~4" legspan at the moment (minus the antenniform legs, or rather leg since she dropped one during shipping). She is still sitting behind that small piece of cork bark I've attached to the top left corner (she was partially visible until a few minutes ago, but crawled fully out of sight when I opened the enclosure to take this second picture). The enclosure is 12" high, though with the substrate and the cork flat at the top the actual height is more like 11".

Ah ok that's much clearer! This should be fine, assuming there is enough space behind the large piece of cork to hang to molt. I generally go almost top to bottom with my slants but I also use styrofoam most of the time, which is understandably much easier to size.

The soil does look extremely waterlogged, just be careful not to overdo it on the moisture.

Otherwise good luck with them, hopefully they'll do nicely!

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

This should be fine, assuming there is enough space behind the large piece of cork to hang to molt.

This was the biggest piece I had at the time; I could swap it out for a taller piece later, but in case that doesn't happen I've provided plenty of other molting options (the entire back wall, most of the left wall and the piece of cork up top). The cork piece itself is a bit over 8" tall, and it leans towards the back of the enclosure, so that there's an average of 3" of space between it and the back wall (though it varies from roughly 1" gap at the top of the cork to almost 4" towards the bottom).

The soil does look extremely waterlogged, just be careful not to overdo it on the moisture.

Yeah I might have overdone it, knowing how sensitive amblypygids are to moisture (especially WC specimens like these) and concerned about how heavily ventilated my enclosure was (good for herps or Ts, not ideal for amblys). The female has (as far as I know) never gone anywhere near the floor of the enclosure except when she was first put in it, so hopefully that's a good sign.

 

[Sarkhan42]

This was the biggest piece I had at the time; I could swap it out for a taller piece later, but in case that doesn't happen I've provided plenty of other molting options (the entire back wall, most of the left wall and the piece of cork up top). The cork piece itself is a bit over 8" tall, and it leans towards the back of the enclosure, so that there's an average of 3" of space between it and the back wall (though it varies from roughly 1" gap at the top of the cork to almost 4" towards the bottom).



Yeah I might have overdone it, knowing how sensitive amblypygids are to moisture (especially WC specimens like these) and concerned about how heavily ventilated my enclosure was (good for herps or Ts, not ideal for amblys). The female has (as far as I know) never gone anywhere near the floor of the enclosure except when she was first put in it, so hopefully that's a good sign.

Oh I'm sure it won't bother her in the short term, I'm just always wary and trying to nitpick what I can when people are looking for input! I think she'll do just fine. She's been eating ok I assume?

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Oh I'm sure it won't bother her in the short term, I'm just always wary and trying to nitpick what I can when people are looking for input! I think she'll do just fine. She's been eating ok I assume?

She ate on the first day I got her and several times afterwards, so she's probably good on that (a bit more plump now than she was at the shop).

 

[CrazyOrnithoctonineGuy]

Some mixed (but mostly bad) update on the situation.

I have said before that I planned to house the male P. orientalis in a similar manner as the female, but there's only limited room for such a large enclosure in my household due to family members absolutely refusing to allow me to put an enclosure in my room and having to make to with a series of built-in display cabinets. Thankfully (or unfortunately) my subadult Omothymus violaceopes is a confirmed male, so the plan was to send him off for a breeding sale, and then move the male P. orientalis into the ExoTerra currently occupied by the O. violaceopes.

The problem is that so far nobody has shown any interest in my O. violaceopes meaning that its enclosure is still occupied, and the male P. orientalis ended up molting TODAY, in an enclosure that has enough vertical height for him to do so but insufficient width.

The good news:
- The amblypygid is still alive and fully mobile.
- The pedipalps came out reasonably well (there is an issue with the right pedipalp in that the distal end is bent in a way it prevents the limb from completely folding up on itself, but it's intact enough that the animal should still be able to seize prey and bring it up to the chelicerae with both pedipalps)
- the missing right middle leg and left antenniform leg has been regenerated.

The bad news:
- the right antenniform leg came out partially malformed, though still functional (it's been bent at the middle segment but only slightly).
- Much more concerningly, the newly regenerated left antenniform leg has been bent at both the middle AND proximal segments, and while the animal is actively moving both antenniform legs around, its deformed shape (and the fact it's much smaller than the other antenniform leg) means it can't be used effectively for hunting.
- The left front leg also came out somewhat bent and the animal has dropped it since, meaning he's back to 5 walking legs and 1 functioning antenniform leg.

Now, I'm not concerned about his immediate survival, since he should still be able to feed himself and move around sufficiently well. The issue is that I doubt he'd be in any shape to mate until after he molts again, and unless I can rid myself of my O. violaceopes male I can't house him in the same manner as the female (unless I cohab him with the female the entire time, which is far too much of a risk to both of them and defeats the purpose of waiting until both of them are in top shape to breed them).

I also need to know how quickly this species (or, in a pinch, other large amblypygids) grows and how often they will molt, since at the very least the male has to molt again and the female has to molt (she hasn't molted since I got her) if I am to pair them while they're in their best shape.