Phoenix, AZ Pitbull Attack - Judge Spares the Dog

Julia

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A Phoenix judge on Tuesday opted not to put to death a pit bull that attacked a 4-year-old boy last month, but ordered it to be defanged, neutered and to have a microchip implanted.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/03/25/phoenix-mickey-pit-bull-fate/6879191/

I understand the arguement from both sides. Justice for the boy vs. justice for the abused (according to the story) dog. But "sparing" the dog by removing its teeth? I just don't get how that helps anything. Neither the boy nor the dog benefits. What's the point here?
 

pitbulllady

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http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/03/25/phoenix-mickey-pit-bull-fate/6879191/

I understand the arguement from both sides. Justice for the boy vs. justice for the abused (according to the story) dog. But "sparing" the dog by removing its teeth? I just don't get how that helps anything. Neither the boy nor the dog benefits. What's the point here?
I don't see how that is supposed to help any at all, for either the dog or the kid. Removing a dog's teeth will eventually cause a plethora of painful health issues and result in an early death, anyway. The dog bit because it was starved and someone tried to take away all it had been given to eat-a bone. Any starving animal or human will defend a scrap of "food". Even most dogs that are well-fed have limited tolerance of anyone messing with their food, which is why I was taught from a very early age to avoid any animal that was eating. I can't blame the kid, though, if no adult had taken the time to teach him that, anymore than I can blame a starving dog for defending all it had to eat. Blame goes to the adult(s) who were supposed to be caring for the dog AND the kid.

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cold blood

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A house dog has little need for its canines (not that I condone their removal). The dog will take down kibble just fine. It will also still hurt a lot if the dog bites, so its not exactly a cure all problem solver. Its not the dogs fault here, its the owners all the way. The article mentions the dog killed a german shepard pup just 7 months earlier. That's a warning sign at the very least, and now they just look stupid for bringing a child around a dog with bad recent history.

Pits are great dogs, but they very much need the right owner, and so many of the right owners don't own pits, which is why they have such a bad rep with much of the public. Its amazing to me how many first time dog owners get or want pits. Now for those pit owners, I am not saying there are not great owners of these dogs, just that too many of the wrong people idolize them for the wrong reasons. I have seen more pits teased in "the hood" than all other breeds combined in all my experiences.

On another note, I have a boxer with almost the same color markings as the offending pit (mix).

---------- Post added 03-25-2014 at 05:27 PM ----------

It wasn't all the dogs teeth, just the 4 canines from what I understood.
 

The Snark

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A child is not considered responsible for it's actions until the age of ____. Animals don't get cut the same slack. If a kid is a completely anal orifice... well, it wasn't born that way, was it? A dog, be it pitbull or St. Berny or H 47 fuzzball is loving licks and romps until trained otherwise. This shirking of responsibility, be it wayward dog or juvenile delinquent, really doesn't cut it. But I don't see proper parenting or responsible pet ownership being given serious consideration by the courts on the horizon.
 

pitbulllady

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A child is not considered responsible for it's actions until the age of ____. Animals don't get cut the same slack. If a kid is a completely anal orifice... well, it wasn't born that way, was it? A dog, be it pitbull or St. Berny or H 47 fuzzball is loving licks and romps until trained otherwise. This shirking of responsibility, be it wayward dog or juvenile delinquent, really doesn't cut it. But I don't see proper parenting or responsible pet ownership being given serious consideration by the courts on the horizon.
I can't fault either the kid, who was only four, or the dog, who had been starved and probably abused in other ways as well. The dog(which is probably a Catahoula mix) was a walking skeleton when it was brought in. There was an adult present who was keeping the child, but did not interfere when the child went over to where the dog was chained and attempted to take away a bone that the dog was trying to eat. The adult should have kept the child from going over to the dog in the first place, and certainly you would think that most adults would know that MOST dogs will defend their food, but I can tell you from my own personal experiences that many people have no clue. They do assume that because THEY would consider something wrong, that a toddler or an animal would also consider it wrong, and avoid doing it, just by default.
The dog in question has a blue eye, lots of white, and shows merle patching on the colored areas of its body. American Pit Bull Terriers DO NOT have the merle gene present in their gene pool, and since it's a dominant gene, if it's there, you'd know it. When merle "pit bulls" started popping up in litters and certain breeders began promoting these as "rare", legit APBT breeders got suspicious and requested both the American Dog Breeders Association, the leading registry for APBT's, and the United Kennel Club, to investigate, and their conclusion was that ALL merle "pit bulls" traced their ancestry back to the yards of several wild hog hunters down South, who had both APBT's and Catahoula Leopard Dogs, and that the merle pattern had originated with both accidental and deliberate cross-breeding to Catahoulas and that the merle "pit bulls" are NOT purebred at all, and many dogs sold as such are actually purebred Catahoulas with cropped ears. Any merle dog that is mostly white should always be suspected of having some degree of deafness, due to the homozygous expression of this semi-lethal, dominant gene. Deaf dogs do have a tendency to snap, because they startle easily, and this is why most breeders put them down, although there are people who are willing to work with these dogs. Combine that with the dog being starved and neglected, and someone trying to take away all it had to eat(a bone), and you definitely have a problem.

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The Snark

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PBL, that explains or adds to the defense of the animal. And the removing of it's teeth?
 

Julia

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The removal of the teeth part is what really struck me as off. Especially since the article also says the dog is ordered to a rehab facility and not to ever be adopted out. "Defanging" seems completely senseless. I need to see if there are any follow-up articles yet.
 

The Snark

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The removal of the teeth part is what really struck me as off. Especially since the article also says the dog is ordered to a rehab facility and not to ever be adopted out. "Defanging" seems completely senseless. I need to see if there are any follow-up articles yet.
Would this be the OJ Simpson-Lindsay Lohan-Chris Brown form of criminal justice? (Aka, giggle and run). Okay okay. Getting serious. If the dog was human... there could not possibly be demonstrated malice aforethought or premeditation. Therefore at best the perp would be charged with second degree assault which could be considered felonious or a simple misdemeanor. Taking into account the perp REacted and did not initiate any action, and there being no mention of prior incidents. this would normally be considered a misdemeanor. In layman's terms, the perp acted inappropriately under the circumstances. This would result in anything from a warning and maybe a fine to a short stint in jail.
However, since the animal is 4 legged, it is sentenced to incarceration in a rehab facility for the rest of it's life, along with a portion of it's anatomy removed. I don't think I can rattle that into all the holes even if I turned the monitor on it's side.
IE, okay Christopher M Brown, it's off to Tehachapi for you for a 75 year stint and we'll be collection either your fists or gonads at the door, your choice.
 
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pitbulllady

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Would this be the OJ Simpson-Lindsay Lohan-Chris Brown form of criminal justice? (Aka, giggle and run). Okay okay. Getting serious. If the dog was human... there could not possibly be demonstrated malice aforethought or premeditation. Therefore at best the perp would be charged with second degree assault which could be considered felonious or a simple misdemeanor. Taking into account the perp REacted and did not initiate any action, and there being no mention of prior incidents. this would normally be considered a misdemeanor. In layman's terms, the perp acted inappropriately under the circumstances. This would result in anything from a warning and maybe a fine to a short stint in jail.
However, since the animal is 4 legged, it is sentenced to incarceration in a rehab facility for the rest of it's life, along with a portion of it's anatomy removed. I don't think I can rattle that into all the holes even if I turned the monitor on it's side.
IE, okay Christopher M Brown, it's off to Tehachapi for you for a 75 year stint and we'll be collection either your fists or gonads at the door, your choice.
Actually there WAS a prior incident, but it involved another dog, not a human. The dog that was chained to a tree allegedly killed a German Shepherd puppy that belonged to the same woman that was keeping the child(the biting dog was not hers but a relative's, though it stayed on her property) when the puppy approached it while it was eating. Given the condition of the mixed-breed dog, it's not surprising that it would demonstrate extreme food-protecting behavior. That seems to be the trigger for its aggression: food.

pitbulllady
 

Julia

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Different but similar topic--

The whole bit about having to stay in a rehab facility isn't bad. Have you seen the episode of the show Dogtown which was all about how they took in something like 25 of the "most dangerous" Vick dogs? It's extremely eye-opening what they did to rehab these dogs and turn most of them into adoptable pets. There were some that they decided could never be adopted out and would live at Dogtown the rest of their lives.

Vick Dogs at Dogtown

Episode about the Vick Dogs (in parts)

One dog, Georgia, came in missing all of her teeth. She was a champion fighter so naturally, they wanted to breed her. All of her teeth were surgically removed so that she would not bite the stud dogs. It was one of the most horrific things I've ever seen.
 

bugmankeith

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Since when should judges be punishing animals, court rooms are for humans! What they needed was an animal behavioral specialist and dog trainer to say why the dog did what it did. Horrible they removed the teeth that's abuse. I don't care for people for this reason.
 

pitbulllady

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Since when should judges be punishing animals, court rooms are for humans! What they needed was an animal behavioral specialist and dog trainer to say why the dog did what it did. Horrible they removed the teeth that's abuse. I don't care for people for this reason.
The judge in this case was required to intervene in state law, which requires that an animal which has been declared "vicious" or "dangerous" be put to death. There was a side here who was arguing that the dog was not vicious, but reacted simply in defense of its food( a bone, some meal, huh?) because it was literally starving, which made this case different from one in which a healthy dog bites or attacks. Ordinarily, there would be no one even considering sparing a dog that has bitten someone, especially if the victim was a child, but the shelter workers realized that the dog was in such poor physical condition that its lack of food had resulted in its behavior. I don't understand the removal of its canines, though. That makes no sense at all. A dog's canine teeth are deeply rooted in its jawbones and occupy a lot of space, and when they are removed the other teeth are going to move around into abnormal positions, resulting in unusual wear on those teeth. Removing the canine teeth of a large dog usually requires more than simply pulling the teeth and often requires surgery to actually cut into the bone to loosen the tooth at the root. I had a dog who had to have a canine tooth removed after he broke it off about mid-way its visible length, and that was a pretty extensive bit of surgery to get that tooth out, because I could not afford to have a full root canal and capping done. That also is something that is bugging me, that they will just have the dog's canine's teeth lopped off with bolt cutter, leaving the pulp and nerves exposed, such as what is required of sled dogs in Greenland when they turn a year old. Those dogs, the sled dogs, are also required to be shot and killed on their 7th birthday, because by that time, tooth decay will have set in and dog will be in pain constantly due to having had its canine teeth chopped off with bolt cutters.

pitbulllady
 

Julia

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In my search for a follow up article the other day (of which I didn't find one), I did see reference to a group of attorneys that do nothing but represent animal interest, and they were responsible for making sure this turned into a court case. I have a feeling the judge's ruling will be challenged by that group.

PBL, I love reading your posts because of all the great dog knowledge you bring on dogs. But I 'll admit that I could have gone my whole life without knowing about dogs' teeth being cut with bolt cutters. Wow. :( Truthfully though, removing only the canines would not help if the dog bites a human again. Have you ever been bitten by a rabbit before? They have no canines or otherwise sharp teeth, but HOLY CRAP does it hurt!! And breaks skin easily. The remaining teeth on a dog would do the same.
 

pitbulllady

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In my search for a follow up article the other day (of which I didn't find one), I did see reference to a group of attorneys that do nothing but represent animal interest, and they were responsible for making sure this turned into a court case. I have a feeling the judge's ruling will be challenged by that group.

PBL, I love reading your posts because of all the great dog knowledge you bring on dogs. But I 'll admit that I could have gone my whole life without knowing about dogs' teeth being cut with bolt cutters. Wow. :( Truthfully though, removing only the canines would not help if the dog bites a human again. Have you ever been bitten by a rabbit before? They have no canines or otherwise sharp teeth, but HOLY CRAP does it hurt!! And breaks skin easily. The remaining teeth on a dog would do the same.
I've been bitten by rabbits, rats, mice, and even a GOAT! The goat broke the skin and left a nasty bruise that lasted for weeks, and goats don't even have any teeth in the front of their upper jaw at all! The mouse bite severed a blood vessel and lymph node in my finger, resulting in massive swelling of my entire forearm, necessitating a trip to the ER and having to use bolt cutters to remove a ring, due to the swelling happening so fast I did not have time to remove the ring myself. I've had rat bites that required stitches. None of those animals have anything resembling canine teeth, and then there's horse bites. Talk about a bad bite! Horses do not have canine teeth, either.

pitbulllady
 

The Snark

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Coffee on board... maybe not working but anyway, that's my excuse here.
The thing about a dog biting and being judged by human standards seems wrong, but I'll get back to that.
From personal experience, or that of close associates, bite bites. Goats nip, but as all ruminants, there's a huge amount of power in that nip. A hematoma is pretty much a certainty (why does this stupid spell checker flag hematoma and suggest tomato?). Fortunately cattle aren't inclined to bite. That leaves horses as the worst. Morons feeding a horse a treat not using the flat of the hand and making sure fingers stay out of the way, or the playful nip. Massive avulsions and severe displaced compound fractures of fingers are the order of the day with them.
The worst animal bites are from primates. Pound for pound they are exponentially more powerful than carnivore predators and they bite repeatedly, putting effort into doing the most damage possible. My buddy at the San Diego zoo has told me the horror stories there.

But getting back to dogs and removing teeth. That seems to be imposing a human standard. You take away the weapon from the human. And the human in obtaining and using a weapon demonstrates malice aforethought and deliberation to some degree which dogs generally don't have. (I'd say always but my Akita provided proof otherwise).

So what it boils down to is maiming the animal. Retribution. Right off the bat that is sort of lowering the human down to the animal level. The justification is removing it's weapons. Well, two aspects there. Muzzles and isolation of the violent canine criminal if our frontal lobes have entirely failed us and we write the animal off as entirely incorrigible.

Shouldn't we, as the most advanced animal on the planet, have the ability to discern completely incorrigible animals that can never be released into society and have a containment facility for them? But also, if we are going to hold the biting dog to human standards, shouldn't we also offer remedial therapy just as we offer humans?

There's an ugly double standard at work here that is demeaning to humans in general. When pronouncing judgment on an animal, we really need to make certain the punishment we mete out isn't some form of retribution-revenge, executed with extreme malice aforethought.

So with the incident this thread is about, the dog didn't really get a reprieve. It got sentenced to life without parole AND a brutal inhumane maiming. This is some form of justice? It was simple assault, not aggravated. There were extenuating circumstances. The punishment does not fit the crime. I fervently hope some lawyers come to that animal's aid a wrack up a monumental pile of court costs. Maybe even get a precedent on record. Put the arrogant double standard opposable thumbs crowd to the test and find them wanting.
 
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cold blood

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I see the end result is a dog that, under most circumstances, would have been put down without question or consideration, that will now be able to not only live its life out, but be in better care and a significantly better place for the remainder of its life. It will likely never be hungry again. Compared to other dogs in its situation, that dog won big time, as its now in a better place, like other dogs with child attacks on their records, but this dogs better place is ACTUALLY a better place, not "heaven". The dogs canines were surgically removed, not removed with a bolt cutter....that's just awful PBL, breaks my heart to hear stuff like that still goes on.

---------- Post added 03-30-2014 at 10:23 PM ----------

From the article: "Just in the month it took to settle the case, nearly 450 other dogs in Maricopa county were exterminated for the same aggressive behavior-an average of 13 dogs every day Micky's (that's the offending pooch's name) life was debated"


Micky may as well have hit the lotto with those odds he was facing!
 
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Julia

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Very quick update: a post on the Save Mickey FB page on March 25th says that no teeth will be removed. Under Arizona law, "defanging" means that the teeth are ground down.
 

pitbulllady

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Very quick update: a post on the Save Mickey FB page on March 25th says that no teeth will be removed. Under Arizona law, "defanging" means that the teeth are ground down.
That is MUCH worse than removing the teeth! Grinding down the teeth is the same as breaking them off with bolt-cutters; it will leave the nerves and pulp open and exposed to bacteria, resulting in constant pain and inevitable tooth decay and abscesses unless a full root canal and capping is done on each tooth, and who is going to pay that for a quadruple root canal on a dog? Imagine having YOUR teeth ground down to expose the nerves inside, trying to eat and chew, how that would feel, and tell me how that is supposed to improve the behavior of the dog? The dog will be better off being put down, honestly, than being condemned to a life of horrible pain and infection.

For those of you who are not familiar with Arizona's "Vicious" animal law, any dog that barks, lunges from behind a fence, LOOKS menacing to someone, chases another animal(including wild animals like squirrels), or is even found roaming at large more than twice, can be declared "vicious" and be put to death. This is why you have so many dogs-450 in one month, 13 dogs PER DAY-being killed in ONE county alone for being "vicious". Most of those dogs are simply being DOGS, doing normal everyday doggie things like barking at people passing by their owner's property or chasing a squirrel or a cat up a tree, and some no doubt are destroyed because of how they LOOK; they're big, have a scowly face or teeth that show when their mouths are closed. Maybe they jumped a fence three times and were picked up roaming around by Animal Control, but were otherwise friendly. Doesn't matter. That third time's a charm, and it is enough for the dog to be declared "vicious" and a menace and destroyed.

pitbulllady
 

Julia

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That is MUCH worse than removing the teeth! Grinding down the teeth is the same as breaking them off with bolt-cutters; it will leave the nerves and pulp open and exposed to bacteria, resulting in constant pain and inevitable tooth decay and abscesses unless a full root canal and capping is done on each tooth, and who is going to pay that for a quadruple root canal on a dog? Imagine having YOUR teeth ground down to expose the nerves inside, trying to eat and chew, how that would feel, and tell me how that is supposed to improve the behavior of the dog? The dog will be better off being put down, honestly, than being condemned to a life of horrible pain and infection.
I didn't have time last night to post my reaction to the grinding down teeth statement, but you've illustrated my thoughts exactly. Including the part about it being better for the dog to be put down. Do any other states have such strict laws regarding "vicious" animals?

I can't believe the animal rights people who have fought for this dog's life are ok with the outcome of the case, as the FB page seems to indicate.
 

cold blood

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Agreed on all points. I don't see how grinding teeth down is considered to be humane? I would like to think they were not ground into the roots/nerves, but I am no vet. I would really like to hear from one regarding this procedure.

PBL, you hit a point that I have always had a hard time with...that's that many dogs are viewed differently just based on how they look, and it has been a point of contention in my life for as long as I can recall. My first really big, imposing dog was a big black doberman, she was amazing in every way. So unbelievably obedient and intelligent it was ridiculous. But more often than not, people had no idea, because they would cross the street when we walked up, or run away even. Despite my belief that the dob may be the perfect dog, I didn't get another, because I didn't want to deal with the prejudice.

Since then I have raised a pit, who was a real handful, but good dog, but no one trusted her, no matter how good she was.

I then went to a boxer, which still got some grief because uneducated people mistook her for a pit, but she was a doll who worked with or around the public daily. My current boxer is mostly white, and is VERY often mistaken for a pit and I still after all these years can't believe how differently people act to a breed without regard for the dog itself. I have people all the time worrying about her, then when they find out she's not a pit they instantly relax. I had a guy scream at me just the other day telling me to control my dog, telling me animal control was gonna put my dog down because she's vicious. She walked up to his dog and came back to the pack the instant I called her...couldn't have been more in control. He voiced his final complaints as he walked away...he thought she was a pitbull.....soooooo sad, some of the sweetest dogs I have known have been pits, rots, boxers and dobies.

Dogs get too much credit for bad behavior, bad owners don't get nearly enough.

oh yeah, remind me not to visit AZ.
 
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